CMBA Law and The Land
The Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association is proud to bring you the most compelling content, and to bring our commitment to the Rule of Law to your favorite podcast stream. In our freshly redesigned podcast, we'll feature shorter conversations about every aspect of Law in The Land. You'll also hear from a new generation of lawyers, ready to take on work and life with optimism and courage. We honor the past, we look to the future, and we wanna have some fun! Watch our feed for frequent updates!
CMBA Law and The Land
The Inside Story on Ohio's Marijuana Industry - Thomas G. Haren and Chris Schmitt
Thomas G. Heron predicts that marijuana in Ohio will become a billion dollar industry in the next year. He should know. He’s Ohio’s leading cannabis law attorney, and Partner in Frantz Ward’s Cannabis Law Practice Group. In this latest edition of CMBA’s Law and The Land podcast, Tom sat down with CMBA CEO Chris Schmitt and provides fascinating insights into how weed became legal in Ohio, why he has such a personal passion for this cause, and what the future of cannabis business means for our state. Tom has also served as the chair of the CMBA’s Thought Leadership Committee, and the explains why defending the Rule of Law is so critical for attorneys of all political persuasions.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Hello, everyone and welcome to law on the land. Podcast I'm your host, Chris Schmidt, the CEO of the Cmba. And we are here today with a very special guest.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Who is not only a current member of the Foundation Board, but also the current chair of our Thought Leadership Committee and a former Cmba board member, and so many other things that I'm probably forgetting. A great golfer who happened to win our golf tournament a few weeks ago.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So I'm thrilled to be joined today by Tom Heron of Fran's word. Hi, Tom!
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Tom Haren: Hey! Chris.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So, Tom, you have a very interesting.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Area of law in which you practice. Can you give us 30 seconds or so just on the what's the synopsis? When you meet somebody in an elevator telling them what you do.
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Tom Haren: Yeah. So I am a cannabis attorney, meaning that I.
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Tom Haren: Represent licensed marijuana businesses here in Ohio and across the country.
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Tom Haren: And I am uh honored to be the chair of the cannabis practice here at Francourt, where we have.
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Tom Haren: 4 attorneys in our group.
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Tom Haren: Uh one of the largest cannabis practices in the country.
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Tom Haren: All 4 of our cannabis attorneys.
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Tom Haren: All we do is a hundred percent representing folks in the license marijuana.
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Tom Haren: And hemp space.
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Tom Haren: And then, at any given point, you know, we've got a dozen or so lawyers that are assisting and and doing various things for our cannabis clients, whether it's labor and employment, or construction, or.
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Tom Haren: You know, mergers, acquisitions, etc.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So that's gonna make you pretty unique. Not only just here in Ohio, but also nationwide. There's not a lot of firms that.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Have a specialty practice area doing what you do right?
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Tom Haren: That's right. It's it's 1 of these practice areas where it's really hard to dabble.
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Tom Haren: In the space given, how highly regulated it is, and just how completely weird.
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Tom Haren: The space is uh you really need to like. Sink your teeth in it, and and kind of immerse yourself.
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Tom Haren: In the industry uh, to really provide value for clients.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So we'll come back to talking about the marijuana law in a few minutes. But I want to talk about Tom Heron. The man.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And how you got to be to this point in your practice and in your life. So you're from Youngstown adjacent. Is that right, Lowville?
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Tom Haren: That's right. Lowellville, Ohio.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Awesome. So how do you? Uh? How do you end? Up? From from Louisville, Ohio, to John Carroll? To to Cleveland? State was low. Always the plan. Or is that something you found a little later.
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Tom Haren: So it was always an an area and a potential career path that was interesting to me. You know, I was one of these students where you would take like in high school, those like aptitude.
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Tom Haren: Tests right, and that we're gonna tell you what you wanted to be when you grew up, and it never worked for me, because I would always get a list a mile long.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: Of potential things, everything from.
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Tom Haren: You know, culinary school to like an FBI agent, and everything in between. Um.
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Tom Haren: And so it.
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Tom Haren: When I was looking to.
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Tom Haren: You know. Go to college.
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Tom Haren: I knew I wanted to go away to school.
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Tom Haren: And I just didn't know where. You know I was looking at schools in New York, and I had like in the back of my head. Well, maybe I'll.
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Tom Haren: Go to like the University of Hawaii and get to spend 4 years in Hawaii, and that'll be awesome.
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Tom Haren: But um, no, it it doesn't. And uh you know.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Doesn't sound bad.
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Tom Haren: Was talking with my parents about looking at schools, and my mom.
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Tom Haren: Ah said, Hey.
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Tom Haren: Let's go. Look at John Carroll.
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Tom Haren: Up around Cleveland, I said, oh, that's not big enough for me. I don't want to do it, and I don't even want to waste the time to go look at the campus and really know anything about it.
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Tom Haren: And she said, Well, it's a day off of school.
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Tom Haren: Like, why wouldn't you just take the trip to Cleveland? You don't have to go to? And I was oh, that actually makes a lot of sense.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: I'm in. Yeah.
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Tom Haren: And yeah, we get to campus, and I fell in love with it. It was just one of those things where you know. You kind of know it when you see it, and I saw it, and.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That's great!
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Tom Haren: We were pulling out of the parking lot, and I said, This is.
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Tom Haren: Where I want to go uh to college at so lucky enough to get accepted.
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Tom Haren: And.
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Tom Haren: I.
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Tom Haren: Was a philosophy major in college.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: And is my fellow philosophy. Majors will understand there are not a ton of dedicated career paths for us. Philosophy majors, post graduate.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That's right.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Unless you're going into academia, the chances are very small to find a uh a job. So yeah.
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Tom Haren: That's right.
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Tom Haren: That that's exactly right. Um.
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Tom Haren: But I I started realizing that.
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Tom Haren: Uh. The the law was really probably the most natural career path.
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Tom Haren: For me, and I knew I wanted to stay.
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Tom Haren: In the greater Cleveland area. By the time I graduated college I was dating my now wife.
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Tom Haren: Who I met at John Carroll.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: So I knew I wanted to be close, you know, to her and her family. She was originally from the Cleveland area.
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Tom Haren: And applied it.
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Tom Haren: Cleveland State Law school again, lucky enough to get accepted and.
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Tom Haren: The rest was history.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That's awesome. So um, did you? Um? Did you know this specific area of law?
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um was something you wanted to do? Or did you even know that it existed when you were in undergrad? Or is that a later discovery.
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Tom Haren: When I was a junior, or maybe end of my sophomore year, around 2,007.
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Tom Haren: I had a very close family member get diagnosed with Ms.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: And I did what you do when you get that type of news. Right? I went in front of my computer and I Googled.
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Tom Haren: Cures for multiple sclerosis. And I saw there weren't any. So then I said, Okay, treatments.
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Tom Haren: For multiple sclerosis. And one of the websites that came up talked about the potential.
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Tom Haren: Applicability of medical marijuana.
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Tom Haren: As a treatment option for folks with multiple sclerosis, right can help with muscle. Spasticity can help with pain can help, you know, with sleep, and managing all of these different symptoms.
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Tom Haren: But then I quickly learned.
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Tom Haren: Medical marijuana was not an approved treatment.
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Tom Haren: In Ohio, and you know your doctors.
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Tom Haren: Weren't even allowed to talk to you about it.
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Tom Haren: Because it it was illegal.
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Tom Haren: And that really started my interest on the policy side, for you know, medical marijuana and kind of drug policy generally.
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Tom Haren: Just think like, well, how how does this make sense? Right? There's a potential treatment plan that you can have under the care of a physician.
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Tom Haren: And we've got the government standing in the way.
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Tom Haren: Um for people who are chronically ill.
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Tom Haren: With this, you know, super debilitating disease.
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Tom Haren: And then, when I was in law school.
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Tom Haren: I remember being in my.
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Tom Haren: Constitutional law class. And we're talking about separation of powers and.
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Tom Haren: Um Federalism.
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Tom Haren: And we read the Gonzalez versus Rach case, which was this uh in our space kind of the.
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Tom Haren: Scotus Decision.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right guy.
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Tom Haren: Um, where there was a challenge to the Federal Controlled Substances Act.
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Tom Haren: Um and the ability of the Federal Government to come into. You know, a State legal marijuana business.
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Tom Haren: And take enforcement action. Shut them down, maybe.
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Tom Haren: Prosecute them criminally, and the Supreme Court said, well, look! This is kind of Federalism, 1 0 1 uh the Federal Government.
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Tom Haren: Can enforce its laws.
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Tom Haren: It can't require the States to enforce Federal law, but it can come in and enforce its own laws. Even where there's a conflict between, you know, State and Federal law.
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Tom Haren: And that again sort of striking at my inner libertarian.
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Tom Haren: Inclinations like really upset me. And I I thought, Well, this is dumb.
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Tom Haren: Uh! Who? Who are the Federal? You know? What's the Federal Government to come in and tell States what they can and can't do, and it goes all the way back to, you know, Wickard versus Phil. Burn and intrastate activity and substantial impacts on interstate commerce, etc.
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Tom Haren: Um. So then I I got really interested, not just from a a personal.
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Tom Haren: Standpoint on this issue, but as a professional interest.
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Tom Haren: And the opportunity to maybe impact this area of law in a sort of unique way.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: And in 2,010.
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Tom Haren: The State of California had the 1st ballot campaign for a full blown.
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Tom Haren: Adult use program.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: And that's really when it clicked for me. You know, that campaign failed.
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Tom Haren: But you know what you see in these States out West on issues like this. Eventually it migrates its way.
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Tom Haren: Eastward. And I thought, Okay, this is going to be a real thing.
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Tom Haren: And you're going to have states that have, you know, not just medical marijuana, but full recreational or adult use marijuana.
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Tom Haren: And this has never been done before. Like there's literally 0 precedent for this type of an industry. Nobody knows.
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Tom Haren: How to regulate it. Really, at that point. That was 15 years ago. It's a lifetime.
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Tom Haren: In our industry and.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: You are.
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Tom Haren: And I thought, All right, this is maybe something that I can seek. My teeth, sink my teeth into, and.
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Tom Haren: And have really an impact on.
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Tom Haren: So while I was at.
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Tom Haren: Cleveland State. I was one of the editors of our Journal of Law and Health, and we did this big symposium on medical marijuana.
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Tom Haren: And I think it was maybe.
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Tom Haren: Last semester of my 3rd year law school. This this would have been 2,011.
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Tom Haren: We had a lawyer come down from Michigan. We had a doctor from the clinic. We had some advocates, and one of our professors.
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Tom Haren: And it was, you know, a room packed to the gills.
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Tom Haren: Because at at this point nobody was talking about medical marijuana. In these types of settings.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure.
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Tom Haren: In Ohio, and I thought, All right, this is.
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Tom Haren: Just kind of what I want to do.
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Tom Haren: And soon after graduating.
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Tom Haren: I had coffee with another lawyer in town, who at the time was on the board of directors at John Carroll.
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Tom Haren: And so I I'd met him.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: Uh, when I graduated from Carol, and we kind of stayed in touch, and he gave me one of the best pieces of advice.
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Tom Haren: Which was, you know, find an area of the law that nobody knows anything about.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah, yeah.
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Tom Haren: And be, and become the expert.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure.
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Tom Haren: And then by default.
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Tom Haren: People will have to call you, because nobody else will know anything about it. And so I, I said, Well, okay, this is.
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Tom Haren: This is the opportunity. It's something that I care about. Personally. It's a fascinating area of the law.
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Tom Haren: And there's no playbook, so we get to make it up as we go along.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That's that's great advice that for aspiring lawyers and and lawyers who are who are new out of school is the.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: The the entrepreneurial side of practicing law is something that really, I think, gets under undersold, and people are underprepared for when they come out of law school.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Is that? Sure? You can go and get hired by a firm and get slotted in wherever the firm happens to need you, and there are plenty of jobs that follow that path. But they're really to really have an innovative impact.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: On a firm or on an area of law in any given state. Finding that niche that nobody else is really thinking about gives you a real leg up, and I just got back from a conference in in Toronto for.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: A week, and AI was something that came up, I think, in every one of the sessions. And it's it's almost comical at this point because we're in in the AI is the train is out of the station, right? We are. We are fully on on the path to.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: AI being a part of our daily lives. But we all still talk about it like, Yeah, that's something that we probably should start thinking about.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And looking around that room and going guys, if you haven't already started thinking about it, you're in a world of hurt. And in some ways that's how.
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Tom Haren: Yeah.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: When you look at the the rapid development of of marijuana laws in Ohio, in the 2,010 s.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: We kind of went from from 0 to 60. After that California ballot measure fails. I mean you, we get to the point that there's the issue. 3 in 2015.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: The 1st recreational use, and it fails, and we'll talk about that in a second. But the fact that we go from there to full recreational use, approved in 2023.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: It's wild to think that in that 10 year span so much can change in a place like Ohio that.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Otherwise. I think people think of as a fairly conservative jurisdiction, even even before we were politically as republican, leaning as we are now.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um being being a midwest state. I think there's always been the sense that something like this we would be a later adopter. But I was surprised today that I that in 1975 we were the 6th state in the country to decriminalize marijuana. That really surprised me. I figured that we would be.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: 40th on that list, but not 6th on that list, and so.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um what makes um.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: What makes Ohio such a hotspot for for these conversations that that you've been involved in.
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Tom Haren: It's a great question, and you're right.
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Tom Haren: Most people don't know that marijuana has been decriminalized in Ohio for 50 years.
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Tom Haren: And it's been a traffic ticket.
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Tom Haren: For to possess personal amounts of of marijuana.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: The problem has always been the collateral consequences that came along with.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
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Tom Haren: You know, a minor misdemeanor, marijuana possession, conviction, right? It can impact your ability to drive, you know. Maybe there's a license suspension that gets attached to it. It can impact your ability.
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Tom Haren: To rent, you know, particularly if it's subsidized housing.
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Tom Haren: And can impact your ability to qualify for federal financial aid.
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Tom Haren: Every time you gotta go to court for this minor misdemeanor.
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Tom Haren: Court case. I'm off of work.
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Tom Haren: And if you're missing work, maybe you lose your job right. You gotta.
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Tom Haren: Hire an attorney and provide childcare to go to court like. There are all these things that come from this.
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Tom Haren: You know I would say unjust.
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Tom Haren: Prosecution at at the time.
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Tom Haren: And it's against this backdrop where in Ohio, like people don't really care.
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Tom Haren: About marijuana position. We haven't for a very long time.
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Tom Haren: Especially after we implemented a medical marijuana program.
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Tom Haren: That was making an enormous difference in people's lives, like one of the most rewarding parts of my practice is that.
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Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
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Tom Haren: You know, if I'm.
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Tom Haren: At a golf outing, or I'm at a birthday party with, you know, talking to.
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Tom Haren: Parents, of.
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Tom Haren: Kids who are friends with our kids, or wherever we're at.
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Tom Haren: Um soon as they find out. You know I represent marijuana companies. I hear stories all the time.
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Tom Haren: About. Oh, my gosh! My sister was going through, you know. Chemo.
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Tom Haren: Um and.
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Tom Haren: Medical marijuana was the only thing.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:03.000
Tom Haren: That helped with those symptoms right or um. I had this.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:09.000
Tom Haren: Operation. 4 years ago I was prescribed all of these opiates.
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.000
Tom Haren: And I needed to get off of them.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
Tom Haren: And medical marijuana was the only thing that helped treat my pain.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:22.000
Tom Haren: Um, and it's a non addictive substance, right? Like the the more and more data that we.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.000
Tom Haren: That we have out there.
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Tom Haren: It. It always blows my mind like as a kid growing up in the nineties like the dare program.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.000
Tom Haren: And the stuff they beat into your head about marijuana is a gateway drug. It's a gateway drug. Well.
00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure.
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:39.000
Tom Haren: Just not true, right? And the more data we have.
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000
Tom Haren: It's it's not a gateway drug. It's an off ramp.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.000
Tom Haren: From more dangerous drugs.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Tom Haren: And uh, and I, I think once people see that in their lives.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.000
Tom Haren: And and they experience, and they they start kind of questioning.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Tom Haren: The stuff that they've been told.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Tom Haren: By the Prohibitionist crowd.
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.000
Tom Haren: And uh.
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:07.000
Tom Haren: Oh Ohio's been always, I think, one of these places, and we could have a long conversation about the politics.
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.000
Tom Haren: In Ohio, um.
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.000
Tom Haren: But there is a a.
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:18.000
Tom Haren: Substantial portion of the Ohio public. It is very much a get. The government.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.000
Tom Haren: Out of my life. Type, philosophy.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.000
Tom Haren: And people don't like. When the Government says your doctor can't.
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.000
Tom Haren: Tell you what treatments to get right, or the.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.000
Tom Haren: The government comes in and tells you.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.000
Tom Haren: What you can and can't put in your own body.
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.000
Tom Haren: To the extent you're not hurting anybody else.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:41.000
Tom Haren: So.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.000
Tom Haren: Uh, it's it's made it an interesting dynamic on on this issue.
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.000
Tom Haren: In particular.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:57.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Absolutely. So we look back at 2015 and um issue 3. So the 1st time that recreational use pops up on the ballot.
00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:01.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: If I remember right, it really failed more as a.
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:12.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: We'll call it as a structural failure as opposed to a functional failure. Can you talk about? I remember the campaigns people were upset about the monopoly aspect of it far more than they were about the actual implications of it.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Is that fair?
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.000
Tom Haren: Ye? Yes, I think that's right. The so.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000
Tom Haren: For those who may not remember.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.000
Tom Haren: Uh. In 2015 there was this group called Responsible Ohio.
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.000
Tom Haren: That put a constitutional amendment.
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.000
Tom Haren: On the ballot in that November's election.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.000
Tom Haren: That would have legalized marijuana both for medical and recreational use.
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Tom Haren: And now you hear that, and you think oh, that's.
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Tom Haren: It's not that big of a deal. Well, the problem was, was.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:47.000
Tom Haren: Within that that constitutional amendment was a guarantee that the only places you could commercially grow marijuana were at these like 10 or 12 sites, and.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.000
Tom Haren: The land where those sites were just so happened to be owned by the 10 or 12 people that were funding.
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.000
Tom Haren: The Constitutional Amendment Campaign, Right.
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Who would have thought right? Let's say.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.000
Tom Haren: And and and now we the the slide deck.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:58.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000
Tom Haren: That the campaign had created is now out in the public, and it talks about. These are investment.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:10.000
Tom Haren: Opportunity. So they were raising money from investors in a ballot campaign.
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:16.000
Tom Haren: In the very 1st article from the plane dealer about the campaign.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:18.000
Tom Haren: Called it a cartel.
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:26.000
Tom Haren: And and man did that stick like this was a campaign that like if you checked all of the boxes, for if you had a list of things that.
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.000
Tom Haren: Here. Here's what you can do wrong on a marijuana campaign like they just checked all the boxes right? It was structurally a terrible idea.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Tom Haren: You know they.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Tom Haren: Were it on on college campuses with a mascot, you know, Super, Buddy.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:48.000
Tom Haren: Um. Around these 1819 20 year olds.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:59.000
Tom Haren: Who would not be allowed to buy marijuana under their own campaign. And they're marketing this campaign to them like, isn't this gonna be so cool like it was just a a.
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.000
Tom Haren: From a political science like it was a terrible campaign.
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure.
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.000
Tom Haren: Um, and it failed appropriately.
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah, and it failed pretty notably. It was. It wasn't even a close vote. It was a uh sort of.
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.000
Tom Haren: But.
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Tom Haren: It. It did. No, no, it's 2 to one.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: 2 to one. Yeah.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, it was 2 to one and.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Tom Haren: However, it it did.
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.000
Tom Haren: Really focus.
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:28.000
Tom Haren: The Legislature here in Ohio.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.000
Tom Haren: And the policy folks.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.000
Tom Haren: In Ohio that. Okay, this is something that is coming, because at the time.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.000
Tom Haren: You know, medical marijuana was polling at 80. Some percent.
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.000
Tom Haren: And the public adult use was about 50 50.
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Tom Haren: As just a sort of a general.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:47.000
Tom Haren: Policy question. And so shortly after that campaign.
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:52.000
Tom Haren: You know, there was another campaign launched by the Marijuana Policy Project.
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.000
Tom Haren: Focus solely on medical marijuana.
00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Tom Haren: And the Legislature also, then started this like listening tour and task force.
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.000
Tom Haren: And 6 months later.
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Tom Haren: Ohio, passed a medical marijuana law.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.000
Tom Haren: Through the legislature signed by the Governor in June of 2016.
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:17.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Which is wild. It's that's as a as somebody who's lived in Ohio my whole life. The the thought that that would not come through a ballot initiative, but instead would come.
00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:24.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Through the legislative directly. Certainly, I think, caught me off guard in 2016, and I think a lot of Ohio that.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:35.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um that it feels. Sometimes it feels like the the populace is dragging the legislator along on anything involving a social issue. And then on this we got the complete reversal. And why do you think that was.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Tom Haren: Well, I I actually do think it was the the populace dragging the legislature along. It was polling at 80%.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:48.000
Tom Haren: Like the writing was on the wall. It was going to pass at the ballot. And so the legislature really just had a choice.
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:54.000
Tom Haren: Is this something we want to do ourselves? Have it in the Revised code? Or do we want to seed.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:00.000
Tom Haren: This issue uh, and lock it into the Ohio Constitution, where we can't make changes.
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.000
Tom Haren: Down the road, and the legislature chose, you know, obviously to.
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Tom Haren: Pass their own version of the law, but.
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.000
Tom Haren: If it was not polling at 80% in favor.
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.000
Tom Haren: Maybe it would have been a different outcome.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure, so we'll uh.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: We'll zoom through the next. Let's see, 6, 8 years of history. Um, that from 2016 when medical gets uh.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Approval in Ohio.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: A lot of individual cities.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:35.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Are very actively decriminalizing even further any any use within their.
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:41.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Within their jurisdiction, and a lot of police departments are are told to just short of. Look the other way.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:49.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: On, on all of on possession, or especially anything that would be considered a individual use.
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:55.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And so it continues. The national conversation continues to move the Ohio conversation continues to move.
00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:09.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So we get to 2023, or I'm assuming a few years before that. And then there's a groundswell of support enough, and a group of support. Enough that they decide that. Okay, it's time to go back to the ballot box. We may have failed in 2015.
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:13.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: But it's time to go back in 2023, and what would become issue? 2.
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:18.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: You talk about how you got involved in in that? I know you. You became the face of that campaign.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:25.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: In Columbus and Statewide. And so how? How do you get recruited into that? And then how do those conversations.
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Unfold that gets that language on the ballot. Ultimately.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:36.000
Tom Haren: So it's. It's a little bit of a long story, but it it's a it's. It's 1 of these stories where.
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.000
Tom Haren: It's a little bit right place right time.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Tom Haren: But it's also um sort of culmination of.
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:50.000
Tom Haren: Experiences that kind of put you in that in that place. If that makes sense so.
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.000
Tom Haren: If you go back to 2014.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:58.000
Tom Haren: I was the I call the Republican sacrificial lamb.
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.000
Tom Haren: In an Ohio State Senate race.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.000
Tom Haren: Uh where I was the Republican nominee.
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.000
Tom Haren: In a State Senate District.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:17.000
Tom Haren: That included Parma, Parma Heights, Middleburg Heights, the west side of Cleveland, Lakewood. These sort of democratic strongholds.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure.
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:26.000
Tom Haren: And when people got done laughing at me for being a Republican running in that district, they started laughing me for being a Republican, talking about legalizing marijuana.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:31.000
Tom Haren: So you know, this was a policy issue that I had some experience.
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:35.000
Tom Haren: Talking about in the political atmosphere.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:41.000
Tom Haren: And from 2016 until 20.
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Tom Haren: Excuse me. 2021. When the.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.000
Tom Haren: A coalition, regulate marijuana like alcohol campaign launched.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.000
Tom Haren: I was in the press a lot just talking about marijuana issues.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:57.000
Tom Haren: And you know these tend to be the articles that get the most clicks.
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.000
Tom Haren: On new sites, so they like having stories about them.
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:03.000
Tom Haren: It's also a valuable resource.
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Tom Haren: For the public to help understand what's going on in the space like.
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.000
Tom Haren: Cranes, I think, has done a terrific job.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:15.000
Tom Haren: Covering this industry from from the business lens and helping.
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.000
Tom Haren: People understand that this is a legitimate.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.000
Tom Haren: You know, commercial industry, not just this, like cultural phenomenon.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.000
Tom Haren: And so I had. I had, you know. I like to think, learned a couple of things.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Tom Haren: From the public relations, aspect.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.000
Tom Haren: Anytime you. You have a lawsuit.
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:40.000
Tom Haren: The news, picks it up right clients new dispensary, opens the news, picks it up. The city wants to enact a moratorium.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.000
Tom Haren: Or rescind a moratorium. The press is going to pick it up, and I'm generally presenting at those.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.000
Tom Haren: City, council meetings and things.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Tom Haren: So I I think the campaign was looking for somebody who.
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.000
Tom Haren: Not just understood the policy.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:01.000
Tom Haren: And, uh, you know, could make the the policy case for the initiative, but also.
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:06.000
Tom Haren: Had some experience on the the public relations side, and and knew how to.
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.000
Tom Haren: Um talk to the public.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Tom Haren: A little bit, and it just so happened that again the.
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:17.000
Tom Haren: 7 or 8 years worth of things that I've been doing kind of fit that.
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.000
Tom Haren: Fit that mold.
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And so we get into that 2021.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: When the when the coalition does form.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um? Is there conversation about.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um trying to push this through the legislator as opposed to.
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Going back to the ballot? Or was the ballot always the plan.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:43.000
Tom Haren: So the issue 2 campaign was what's called an initiated statute.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.000
Tom Haren: Campaign as opposed to a constitutional amendment.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:51.000
Tom Haren: A constitutional amendment campaign is exactly what it sounds like. You. You go to the ballot if you win.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:00.000
Tom Haren: Your proposal is enshrined in the Ohio Constitution, and the only way to get it out of there is another ballot campaign or a constitutional convention.
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000
Tom Haren: An initiated statute.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
Tom Haren: Is different, both in what happens if you win, but also in the process to get there.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Tom Haren: So constitutional amendment, you gather your 450,000 signatures or so.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Tom Haren: If you, if all of those are valid, you're on the ballot at the next election.
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.000
Tom Haren: With an initiated statute.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.000
Tom Haren: You start by gathering.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.000
Tom Haren: A smaller number of signatures.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.000
Tom Haren: In our case it was 130,000, or.
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.000
Tom Haren: And then your proposal goes before the legislature.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Tom Haren: The legislature has 4 months.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.000
Tom Haren: To pass your proposal, as is, in which case.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.000
Tom Haren: You're in the Ohio Revised Code like any other statute.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000
Tom Haren: Or if they do nothing or change it, you have an opportunity to go, gather.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:57.000
Tom Haren: Another 130 ish 1,000 signatures, and then get it on the ballot.
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:02.000
Tom Haren: An whole idea. There is as a statute. Maybe the legislature will, you know, hold hearings and.
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.000
Tom Haren: Consider the proposal.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.000
Tom Haren: In our case they did none of those things.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.000
Tom Haren: And um.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:21.000
Tom Haren: And and actually we ended up in a fight about whether our uh initial batch of signatures was timely submitted to get on the 2022 ballot, or the 2023 ballot.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:26.000
Tom Haren: Uh. So we ended up settling that, and we got on the ballot and.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:31.000
Tom Haren: 2,023, but we we did try to give the Legislature an opportunity to.
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:35.000
Tom Haren: Take up this issue before it went to voters, but they.
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:37.000
Tom Haren: Declined.
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So collecting.
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: A few 100,000 signatures is no small feat, but it also is an awesome marketing opportunity.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: To talk to the people that ultimately are going to vote in that election someday. And so it seems it seems like there's a there's a hidden win in all of that organizing that goes into that process.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:02.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, that's a great point. And one of the things that we found during the signature gathering process.
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Tom Haren: So people are actually really excited to sign our petitions. And it it did give us an early sense of all right. Where? Where are people at.
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:16.000
Tom Haren: On this issue, you know. Are we having to chase people down to.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:21.000
Tom Haren: Assign these things? Or if if we show up somewhere, are they gonna know that we're there and tell their friends.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.000
Tom Haren: Right, and and have them come out and.
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.000
Tom Haren: And we found it was more often than not.
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Tom Haren: The latter.
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: It's uh. So you you get to the fall of 2023.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:43.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: It's on the ballot, notably on the same ballot that the abortion Protection Constitutional Amendment is on.
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:49.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And so it was one of the most highly publicized off-year elections that I can ever remember in Ohio.
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:54.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Did you feel good going into the ballot box that day? Did you feel like you had the numbers.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.000
Tom Haren: We did, and and we felt like that from the beginning, right like we had seen.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.000
Tom Haren: Polling, and done polling and.
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Tom Haren: Throughout the campaign. Every couple of months there was a new poll.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.000
Tom Haren: That would come out. And we were generally right around 60%.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Tom Haren: Support from Ohioans.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Tom Haren: And there was even a poll that.
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Tom Haren: Came out. I wanna say it was October of 2023.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:26.000
Tom Haren: And when you look not just at like the top line, do you support it? Do you not support it? But you break down the demographics.
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.000
Tom Haren: Like we. We were leading among Democrats.
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.000
Tom Haren: We're leading among Independents.
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Tom Haren: We were leading among Republicans.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.000
Tom Haren: We were leading among Evangelicals.
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Tom Haren: We were leading among parents.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:43.000
Tom Haren: Like you look at all these different demographic groups.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000
Tom Haren: And and you're kind of like, oh, this is.
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.000
Tom Haren: This has as broad a support as sort of, I thought.
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:54.000
Tom Haren: But I always wondered like, am I in a bubble right like I'm in the Space People know. This is what I do.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:56.000
Tom Haren: Um at this point.
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.000
Tom Haren: People aren't necessarily seeking me out and telling me that they don't like marijuana like they.
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:04.000
Tom Haren: May have done in 2016, 2017.
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.000
Tom Haren: So maybe I'm just like in this bubble, and people aren't.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.000
Tom Haren: Telling me what they really think, but.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Tom Haren: Look when we looked at those numbers.
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000
Tom Haren: We we felt good.
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Tom Haren: And it tracked sort of anecdotally.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:19.000
Tom Haren: What we thought about about this issue.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:28.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And so so both pass both the Constitution amendment around abortion, and then legalization of recreational marijuana.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: At 57%.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:36.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um, and I think it's at the time it it was certainly celebrated nationally.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:41.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: As a red state, quote unquote.
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:47.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That had swung pretty far right over the last several political cycles leading up to this.
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Put in these 2.
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:55.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: I think the libertarian note that you made earlier about Ohio rings true.
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: There was a there was a notion of stay out of our business, and I thought that that was that was really interesting. So.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:09.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So it goes into effect. So you pass the ballot initiative. It goes into effect. Is it January of the following year? How long was the what was the waiting period?
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.000
Tom Haren: So um.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:22.000
Tom Haren: Technically the law went into effect in December of 2023. So 30 days after the you know, it gets certified, or 30 days after the election.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: You know.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.000
Tom Haren: Um. The the initiated statute was codified in the Ohio Revised Code and became effective.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Tom Haren: But it took 9 months.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.000
Tom Haren: Before we had 1st sales.
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Okay.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Tom Haren: Of adult use cannabis products in Ohio, which honestly, was faster than I thought. Like I had been telling people during the campaign. We'll probably see 1st sales in December of 2024, towards the end of the year.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Gotcha.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.000
Tom Haren: But the program launched.
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Tom Haren: In August of 2024. And so we just had the one year anniversary, about a week ago, of the 1st sales of adult use marijuana in the state.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:05.000
Tom Haren: We're on track in 2025 to do about a billion dollars in adult use. Marijuana sales.
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.000
Tom Haren: Which is um.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.000
Tom Haren: I am a little bit biased, but I think this has been a successful program.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Okay.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.000
Tom Haren: On. On the whole.
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:22.000
Tom Haren: There are things that you know. The partner will continue to grow and and continue to develop.
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:28.000
Tom Haren: But but I think, all things considered, you know I feel pretty good about where the market is at.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:32.000
Tom Haren: And and there still is a lot of opportunity and growth.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.000
Tom Haren: Ahead of us.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:40.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So. Um! There was just some news a few days ago, coming out of Washington.
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: About the Federal Government potentially changing the scheduling of of marijuana as a drug. What was your response when you heard that.
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:59.000
Tom Haren: Well, my 1st response was, this is actually exactly what President Trump said during the campaign. It was one of the only things that he and Vice President Harris agreed on.
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:04.000
Tom Haren: During the course of the campaign, which was that it makes no sense for marijuana to be a schedule. One drug.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Tom Haren: You know, he had come out in support of the Florida adult use campaign, which unfortunately failed at the ballot this past November, but he said he was going to vote in favor of it.
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.000
Tom Haren: And that he supported moving marijuana from schedule one down to schedule, 3.
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.000
Tom Haren: So uh.
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:30.000
Tom Haren: I'm hopeful that he continues the rescheduling process that the Biden Administration had begun.
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Tom Haren: Um, because it makes no sense for marijuana to be a schedule. One drug um, you know, moving it to schedule 3.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Tom Haren: Is a good 1st step. I don't.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.000
Tom Haren: Believe it should be the only step that gets taken at the Federal level.
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:42.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.000
Tom Haren: But but it will solve.
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.000
Tom Haren: Maybe the one of the core issues.
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.000
Tom Haren: For our clients, which is that right now.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Tom Haren: Because marijuana is a schedule. One drug.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:00.000
Tom Haren: Federal law says, if you're trafficking in a schedule one or schedule 2 drug.
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.000
Tom Haren: Unlawfully. You can't take standard business deductions.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.000
Tom Haren: So if you're a standalone dispensary.
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:13.000
Tom Haren: Right now, you're probably paying an effective 75, 80, maybe 90% effective tax rate.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Tom Haren: Really hard to stay in business when you're paying that kind of tax, because you can't write off your lease. You can't write off your employees. You can't write off your equipment.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Wow!
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.000
Tom Haren: On your taxes.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.000
Tom Haren: Like every other business can.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.000
Tom Haren: Um.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.000
Tom Haren: And and the interesting story as to where that came from is that.
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Tom Haren: Back in the late seventies or early eighties.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Tom Haren: There was a cocaine trafficker.
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:42.000
Tom Haren: Who wanted to take business, deductions.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Tom Haren: For his cocaine revenue, because under Federal law you have to pay taxes on all revenue, whether it's legal or illegal.
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:54.000
Tom Haren: And he had, you know, been arrested and said, I think if I have to pay taxes on my cocaine trafficking business, I should be able to take.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:56.000
Tom Haren: Standard business, deductions.
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000
Tom Haren: Federal Government said, No, I don't think so.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.000
Tom Haren: They went to tax court, and he won.
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Tom Haren: And the court said, Yeah, he's he's right like this is how you got Al Capone because he wasn't paying taxes.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Right.
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.000
Tom Haren: And so then Congress changed law.
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.000
Tom Haren: And said, Okay, fine.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.000
Tom Haren: Schedule one and schedule 2 drugs. You can't take standard business deductions.
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Tom Haren: But if so, if Marilyn has moved from schedule one to schedule 3.
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.000
Tom Haren: It not only opens up research.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:26.000
Tom Haren: And the ability to research this plant, but it allows licensed businesses.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:30.000
Tom Haren: You know, maybe at 40 or 50% more revenue to their bottom line.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.000
Tom Haren: And that makes them better borrowers which would hopefully allow them to have lower interest rates.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:44.000
Tom Haren: Uh, when they're taking loans have more money to reinvest back into their businesses. More money to pay employees. Maybe prices can come down like that that will have a meaningful impact.
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.000
Tom Haren: On the on the industry, and a meaningful impact on.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.000
Tom Haren: Consumers.
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:57.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So to put on your prognosticator hat as a as a last question here, do you think we'll see full Federal.
00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:01.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Decriminalization, federal legalization.
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Within our adult lives? Or is that still a long way off.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.000
Tom Haren: Oh, within our adult lives, certainly.
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:16.000
Tom Haren: Um. You know, I've been going to Industry Conferences since 2016, and at every conference somebody on the stage says we're about 5 years away.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:20.000
Tom Haren: And so, you know, that was 9 years ago. The 1st time I I heard that.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Sure. Yeah.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Tom Haren: So I've stopped trying to figure out when it will happen.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.000
Tom Haren: But but I do see a world where.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000
Tom Haren: Republicans take this issue. You know, this has historically been certainly the Federal level, something that Democrats had supported and Republicans had opposed.
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:46.000
Tom Haren: But it never seemed like Democrats actually wanted to spend political capital to make it a reality. Right? It was a messaging vehicle, a fundraising opportunity. But.
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:49.000
Tom Haren: But they never actually got the ball across the finish line.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000
Tom Haren: And so there's an opportunity.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.000
Tom Haren: For I think Republicans to take this issue.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Tom Haren: And say, All right. Well, you know.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:04.000
Tom Haren: We have. However, you feel about it. We have a commander in chief and a President who is.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.000
Tom Haren: Likes to take action on things, and can.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.000
Tom Haren: Drag the Republican caucus in Congress along with him.
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:20.000
Tom Haren: And and so there there could be a world where this becomes more of a republican issue, as it becomes something that people view more of a.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000
Tom Haren: It's more of a libertarian.
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:24.000
Tom Haren: Lens.
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah, it. It is. Uh.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: It's certainly worth noting and growing up in a rural community in Ohio. I did as well as you.
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:35.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That a lot of folks where I'm from.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: See, this is an this is an agribusiness issue, right? This is ultimately.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.000
Tom Haren: 100%.
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: This is a farmer's issue. This is a taxes. This is a this is a keep business, or keep government out of our business initiative far more than it is anything to do with the substance itself.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, I I think that's right. And and all you have to do is look at where issue 2 passed.
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Tom Haren: In the state of our right we won 30 plus counties that Donald Trump won.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Tom Haren: In 2020 like this is no longer a partisan divide. If anything, it's.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.000
Tom Haren: Maybe generational at at this point.
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Mhm.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:16.000
Tom Haren: But as voters get younger and younger, and as you and I get older and older and older, like the.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.000
Tom Haren: Uh. The the generation that opposes marijuana is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:31.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah, that's right. Uh. One last thing I want to ask you about Tom. And we're gonna completely change the subject. Uh, you also serve as the chair of our Thought Leadership Committee.
00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:34.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: You have for the last few years now, and we're certainly appreciative of that.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: That group has gotten a lot more action in the last 12 months than I think it had for.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: For many years before that. So we've had a very robust process in place.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:51.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Around when and if we would issue statements as an organization, and and what kinds of things we would take action on.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:57.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And we've we've put that into into practice a few times in the last 6 months. Um.
00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Can you talk a little bit about our our work collectively around the rule of law?
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:08.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um leading up to this point, and then ultimately, with the Aba's visit this summer with Bill Bay.
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:14.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, absolutely. So you're right. We've it's been an active.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.000
Tom Haren: Committee and.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:20.000
Tom Haren: I I think appropriately so. I mean the the Cmba.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:25.000
Tom Haren: For for a while now, and certainly within the last year, has really been a leader.
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:28.000
Tom Haren: On issues of rule, of law, because as a.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.000
Tom Haren: As an organization.
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:35.000
Tom Haren: We decided at at the board level, at the executive level, at the committee level, that.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Tom Haren: It's worth it to stand up for certain things where it's meaningful to our profession and to the public at large.
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:49.000
Tom Haren: So as we've seen actions by the Administration to target certain law firms.
00:44:49.000 --> 00:45:00.000
Tom Haren: Based on opposing administration efforts or doing work for previous administrations or involvements in investigations and representations of individuals in in those things.
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:05.000
Tom Haren: Um. We've really tried to be out front.
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.000
Tom Haren: Standing up for the Independence.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Tom Haren: Of the legal profession.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Tom Haren: And how important it is to respect the rule of law, right to make sure that.
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.000
Tom Haren: Executive agencies.
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:20.000
Tom Haren: Follow court decisions even where those court decisions.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.000
Tom Haren: Come out in a way that is not.
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:28.000
Tom Haren: How the agency wanted those decisions to come out right. Um.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.000
Tom Haren: To make sure that judges are respected and.
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:39.000
Tom Haren: Um, that just because a judge issues a ruling against you doesn't mean that judge is corrupt.
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.000
Tom Haren: It. Maybe it means you were wrong on the law, or maybe it means the court just.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:48.000
Tom Haren: Disagreed with a party's interpretation of the law.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:51.000
Tom Haren: And that's kind of the cornerstone of what our entire.
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:57.000
Tom Haren: Democratic system is based on right. This respect for the rule of law, that we're a government of laws, not a government of men.
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Tom Haren: And that's what's allowed.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.000
Tom Haren: Our country to be so successful.
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:07.000
Tom Haren: Uh over the course of our history. So where? Where we've seen attacks.
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:15.000
Tom Haren: On the rule of law, where we've seen attacks on the independence of the judiciary and the independence of the legal profession.
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.000
Tom Haren: We've really tried to speak out and be a voice.
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.000
Tom Haren: In the public. Um.
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:26.000
Tom Haren: To oppose those those types of attacks. You know. The Aba has also been out front.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:30.000
Tom Haren: On this issue, and president of the Aba was.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.000
Tom Haren: Uh here in Cleveland and spoke to our members.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Tom Haren: What a week and a half ago.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:41.000
Tom Haren: Uh or so, and obviously we're very grateful to to have him here and.
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:49.000
Tom Haren: And very grateful to be able to punch above our weight as a metropolitan bar and be a leader, not just here in Ohio, but but throughout the country.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Awesome, and I would like to invite anybody listening to our rule of law. Forum. That's coming up on August 21st at 4 pm. Here at the bar, you can find more information about that on our website.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:05.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um. Thank you to Tom Heron.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:12.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Uh from Franz Ward, a practice group leader for remind me that the official title is it the.
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, it's the cannabis law and policy practice.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:21.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: There you go, cannabis, law and policy practice. We sincerely appreciate you taking some time with us today.
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:24.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Here on the law, on the land, podcast.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Please join us for future episodes, where we'll be talking with more interesting people about more interesting things.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And we'll see you soon. Thanks, Tom.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:34.000
Tom Haren: Thank you, Chris.
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.000
CMBA Communications: So good, so good. Thank you both. Thank you, Chris.
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Tom Haren: Of course.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.000
CMBA Communications: Um. And, Tom, I appreciate you coming through. Um. It's gonna be a good.
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Tom Haren: Sorry it's taking me so long. I appreciate you staying on me.
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Yeah. Oh, well.
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:47.000
CMBA Communications: No, no, it's good timing. It's good timing.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:52.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: And and sorry that um yesterday didn't work out, and that was just a miscommunication on our side. So.
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, all good. No, no, it's all good.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:02.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: I was. I was driving back from Toronto, and I'm like I can do it from a parking lot at a gas station for an hour, but that's not going to be nearly as effective as waiting until tomorrow. So.
00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:03.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, no, this is, this is perfect.
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:09.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um. So, Tom, that was great. I I we sincerely appreciate you uh you doing that. It's a fantastic story.
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:09.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, I.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:19.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um, and I love. I love the through line of it, and I uh, I hope you can see it, even though you're in the middle of it of like that! How.
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:30.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Even things you were doing when you were an undergrad has led to now, and how it's changed. And it's a billion dollar industry man, I mean, it's the it's 1 of those things that probably was a pipe dream 10 years ago.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.000
Tom Haren: Yeah, it's it's it's crazy.
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: Um, but so.
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.000
Tom Haren: For sure. Yeah.
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:35.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: So very cool, so.
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:35.000
Tom Haren: Thank you. Both.
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.000
Chris Schmitt - CMBA: All right. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah.
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.000
CMBA Communications: Thank you very much, Tom.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Tom Haren: Alright, take care!