Fighting for The Rule of Law - Previewing the ABA's Visit to Cleveland

"If we're not going to stand up for lawyers and law firms who are our members, what are we even doing here? And if we're not going to speak up and protect the integrity and independence of the courts, what are we even doing here?"

That's CMBA Immediate Past President Matthew D. Besser talking about why we are hosting powerful discussions about the Rule of Law and the role of our courts in protecting the Constitution. He's talking with CMBA CEO Chris Schmitt about an upcoming visit to the CMBA by the American Bar Association on Tuesday July 8, 2025. Matt will be hosting a forum for the legal community with ABA President Bill Bay. Free tickets are still available! Visit clemetrobar.org to learn more.

Transcript

Chris Schmitt (00:03):
Good morning everyone. I'm Chris Schmitt, and I'm the CEO of the CNBA. And welcome to our first episode of the newly renamed Law in the Land podcast. We are excited to have today with me, I can introduce for the very first time, immediate past president Matthew Besser. Matt, how are you doing this morning?

Matt Besser (00:21):
Good, I'm good. I'm honored to be the first guest on the Revamped podcast. This is day two of my post presidential life, and I, it turns out that I left my out of office message on for the past year, and I have a fair bit of email to catch up on.

Chris Schmitt (00:37):
There you go. It's Jimmy Carter did a lot more when he finished being president than he did while he was president, so I still have high hopes for you, for the yeah, for the next seven 70 years of your life building houses in Georgia and whatnot. So <laugh>, well, we are here today to talk about a very exciting thing happening next week here at the CMBA after a lot of work and a lot of conversations over the last six months. We're excited that Bill Bay, president of the American Bar Association will be joining us here in Cleveland on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of next week for several events. And we'll get into the events in just a moment. But just as a lead in Matt, can you tell us why, why is it important that the A BA is coming to Cleveland?

Matt Besser (01:16):
Well, two reasons nationally. It's because of, of the moment we're in and the threats to the rule of law that we've seen over the past few months, the A BA coming in really underscores the stakes that we're facing. And it's just incredibly important that not only lawyers but, but non-lawyers understand what is at risk here. And so the a BA coming in really highlights the critical issue we're in right now locally. It's just an awesome reflection of, of where the CBA stands, the health of our organization and our reputation nationally. So, so in that sense, it's really exciting.

Chris Schmitt (02:02):
Yeah, I was just mentioning in my Bar Journal article this month, and I even talked about at the annual meeting that saying you're with the CMBA at a national events, kinda like saying you're with the Beatles. It's, it's amazing this reputation that I got to inherit thanks to 150 years plus of good work from a lot of different people, Matt, you included, of, of making our reputation such that when we called Chicago and said, we really think you should be talking about these important issues and this important way, and we really think you should come to Cleveland and do an event with us, that they were, they were quick on the, on the, the jump to be able to agree and, and send out a bill to have a have a day with us. And so we're excited about that. As you mentioned locally and nationally, I think this is an important thing and we're, we're excited to see our members, other lawyers of the community, other members of the community that aren't lawyers all be a part of this exciting visit. So how does this fit into the bigger picture of what we've been working on around the rule of law?

Matt Besser (03:02):
So back in March, the first executive order targeting specific law firms came out. It was against the Perkins Cooey Law Firm after the A BA. I think we at the CMBA were the first, maybe the second bar association in the country to speak out and to condemn that for its chilling effect on the profession. The effect it, it has on the ability of our clients to pick our lawyers, the ability of lawyers and law firms to represent even governmentally disfavored clients without fear of retribution. And you might ask why we would speak out about that when Perkins Cooey is not a Cleveland law firm. The answer is because we saw what was coming. And an attack on the rule of law anywhere is an attack on the rule of law everywhere. We, as a Bar Association, we as a community, need to speak out as a whole with a unified voice when the government takes action designed to suppress dissent and lawful opposition.

Matt Besser (04:12):
This is not a partisan issue. It's not a liberal conservative issue. It's not even a Democrat Republican issue. It's about checks and balances. It's the right to, it's about the right to our day in court. It's the right to pick your own lawyer. And of course, the right for all of us as attorneys to practice our profession without fear of being punished by the government just for doing our jobs. The defense of the rule of law standing out for the courts has long been a core mission of the CMBA. You know, this is just an extension of what we've been doing for more than 150 years.

Chris Schmitt (04:51):
The May, june edition of the Bar Journal that came out with the oath on the cover and the defense of the rule of law really was notable very different than what we had done in the Bar Journal in the past with all of the essays from a variety of lawyers, from a variety of political backgrounds and walks of life. It was very exciting to, to do that project and to, to see the outcome. But also, I will say from our perspective, the feedback we've gotten nationally from our peer bar associations and from their officers and their leadership has really been something. And I, I will say that I'm, I'm proud of the steps that we've taken, including our statements going back to the Perkins Coy and the few others that we've been involved in. But even more proud of the fact that we've enabled our associations around the country in red states like we are to have these conversations.

Chris Schmitt (05:41):
I think there's a lot of leaders pushing a lot of leaders to to reexamine their role in this conversation that they're having, but also their, the importance of their individual efforts to their individual communities. It's been exciting to see a lot of our, our peers, especially in smaller cities, step up to the plate and really take a swing at defending the rule of law and celebrating the rule of law. Our, our new president Nick Cello talks a lot about the celebration of the rule of law, but we frame it a lot of the times as something that we are holding onto for dear life. And Nick often points out that it's something that the rule of law is one of the core tenets of our existence as America. And although there are some elements of it that are being challenged currently by the, by the executive branch or by the courts or by Congress, there are also a lot of elements of it that have held. And we, we aim to have them continue to hold. So it's a great conversation that we get to be a part of.

Matt Besser (06:42):
Can I, can I give a peek behind the curtain real quick of the boardroom? Yeah. So you mentioned the May June board journal, when you showed the hover of what the art the journal was gonna be in the boardroom during a board meeting, the board broke out into spontaneous applause. And, and I've been in the boardroom now for five years as a director and then as an officer. And that's the first and only time I can recall the board breaking out into spontaneous applause. And, and I think it's just a reflection of the moment we're in and the need for leadership from anyone and everyone in the legal community, but in particular bar associations. This is the core of what we're supposed to be doing. If we're not gonna stand up for lawyers and law firms, who are our members? What are we even doing here? And if we're not gonna speak out and, and protect the integrity and independence of the courts, what are we even doing here? It's a beautiful issue and people should pick it up and read it. If they haven't it, it's because of the moment we're in.

Chris Schmitt (07:49):
Let's talk specifically about the events that are coming up next Tuesday. The first public event is at the City Club of Cleveland, a longtime partner of the bar. We're excited that they are hosting a, a noon forum, like those of you who are here in town have come to know and appreciate with Bill Bay, moderated by District Judge Dan Ster, who is a longtime friend and supporter and member of the CMBA. We're excited for that conversation to really be focused on the community. How can non-lawyers be involved in this conversation, and what should they do to stand up for the rule of law in their individual lives, even if it's not something that's affected them directly and personally, we're looking forward to that conversation as a way to help shape that narrative with our community leaders. The afternoon event that we're hosting here at the CMBA at four o'clock tickets are still available online. We'd love to have you come. Tickets are free as well, but we'd love to have you come. We'll be Bill doing some opening remarks and then a conversation moderated by you, Matt, with Bill. I was curious, what are you looking forward to discussing with Bill during that hour?

Matt Besser (08:54):
A couple things. I mean, the first is not necessarily what we're gonna discuss, it's that I'm excited to show off how great CMBA is, what a well run organization it is. We've got top a BA brass coming in, in addition to Bill. And so I'd like us to spread our wings and, and show off a little bit, but also show off how engaged the Cleveland legal community is and how thoughtful it is in terms of questions I have for him. It's obviously a lot, but just from a personal perspective, I'm really curious to know how he feels about his unexpected step into the role of lightning rod. I am sure this was not something he envisioned when he got into the pipeline for leadership however many years ago. Exactly. And then all of a sudden, you know, history chooses you to be the spokesperson at a particular time. And I'm, I'm real curious, having just left my role as president of our organization, how he feels about being in this role and, and getting tweeted about by the, by the president, no elected officials tweet about me. I'm kind of disappointed,

Chris Schmitt (10:03):
<Laugh>, there's still time, Matt. It's, we will we'll find somebody. I am sympathetic to that. And I also mentioned at the annual meeting in my remarks, when I accepted this job in early July, it, the world looked a lot different than it did even in early August when it started. It stepped into my role two days after President Biden stepped out of the White House race. And that forever changed the, the narrative and, and the direction we were headed, but it also changed the urgency of a lot of these conversations. It's been an honor to be in the middle of these conversations, and I expect we'll hear something similar from Bill. But there are also certainly moments that it's like, man, I, I really thought that party planning was gonna be a bigger part of my day than trying to uphold the Constitution.

Chris Schmitt (10:42):
But but here we are and it'll be a great opportunity for us to to, like you said, showcase the CMBA, but also to, to showcase our work around these important issues. One last thing I'm gonna hit on before we go, a BA filed a lawsuit last Monday, defending law firms, defending lawyers. I'm gonna call it setting the backstop for a lot of the actions that have happened from the administration around attacks on individual lawyers and individual firms, specifically because of their, the clients they represent, because of actions they've taken, because of people they've hired. And if you haven't read it yet for the lawyers listening right now, I would encourage you to go look at it. It's longer, it's 90 or so pages, but it, it does a really fantastic job of laying out six different constitutional claims of why the White House should be prevented from doing what they're doing as it when it comes to our profession. So Matt, any thoughts on that lawsuit?

Matt Besser (11:32):
Well, I'm glad they filed it. And as I said a couple minutes ago, if bar associations aren't here to protect lawyers and law firms, what are we here to do? The whole purpose of these EOS is to chill dissent, to suppress opposition to the administration and its policies. And we've seen the EOS be very effective at that in terms of representations that some of these large firms are willing to take on pro bono and not in terms of some of the firms going to the administration and offering to give them something in exchange for leaving them alone to the tune of like a billion dollars so far. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And some of the firms have drawn a line in the sand, gone to court. I believe all of them have won at least CRO stage. But not every firm has the wherewithal or fortitude to do that. And the a BA can as a free speech lawyer, you know, I'm particularly interested in, in the First Amendment aspect of the lawsuit. And the law firms that have challenged these eos they've won in part on, on free speech grounds. And I expect the A BA will as well,

Chris Schmitt (12:45):
Kinda a wild time in history when we we need institutions like the A BA to stand up and do what they're doing. I'm, I'm so thankful they exist. I'm so thankful that they have the resolve to do it. But also, as you mentioned, the resources to do it, this is a conversation that that only happens because we have people who have committed resources from their own personal careers to, to be members of things like this CMBA, to be members of the A BA and to focus on being a part of something bigger than their own individual career. And that's, that's another thing. I'm thrilled that the A BA is coming because it gives us a chance to get our members in the room to continue these narratives. We're actually hosting an open forum in August on the heels of this event in July specifically around talking with our members about what we should be doing, what should we be doing more, where should we be leaning in, what sorts of statements are they looking for us to make?

Chris Schmitt (13:38):
Our, our standards are really high for us to come out and make a statement. The the vast majority of our members would agree with something, is the how we make those decisions to, to say something. And we wanna make sure that we're, we're listening ear to the ground with those member feedback points on how we can be leading even more and which points we should be picking to lead even louder on. Well, with that, everybody, we thank you for tuning in today for a very special edition, our very first episode of the Law on the Land podcast. Thanks again to you, Matt. We'll see you next week downtown, and for the rest of you, we hope to see you on Tuesday, either at the city club at noon, or here at the CMBA at four o'clock. Take care.