My BarStory S03E07 - Blind Injustice featuring Terry Gilbert, Laurice Glover, Brian K. Johnson, and Chris Schmitt

Blind Injustice is a musically diverse opera telling the inspiring stories of six people who spent decades in Ohio prisons, only to finally be exonerated and granted the freedom they always deserved.

The CMBA is a proud sponsor of Blind Injustice at Playhouse Square July 11-13, 2025. Tickets are on sale now at playhousesquare.org. Produced in Cleveland by Chagrin Arts, Blind Injustice opened to sold out crowds in Cincinnati, and more recently played at Lincoln Center in New York City to outstanding reviews. CityBeat calls Blind Injustice "a masterpiece."

In this special edition of MyBarStory, CMBA CEO Chris Schmitt is joined by Cleveland attorney and wrongful conviction activist Terry Gilbert. Also on the panel is Laurice Glover, who spent 20 years in prison and whose story is brilliantly portrayed in Blind Injustice, and Brian K. Johnson, a world-renowned opera singer who plays the part of Cleveland exonoree Rickey Jackson.

It's an important discussion about justice, and how art can shine a light on the dangerous gaps in our system.

Transcript

Music (00:00):
I am the prosecutor. I have the tools.

Chris Schmitt (00:24):
Hi everybody, this is Chris Schmitt, and I'm the CEO of the CMBA. And welcome back to another edition of the My Bar Story podcast. We've got a very, very special group of folks here today. Can you all say hi first? First off, just say hello. Hello, hello. Okay, there you go. That's perfect. We've got three of our friends here to talk about something very exciting happening this summer in Cleveland. I'll tell you more about it in a second, but let me introduce these three gentlemen first. Uto my right we have Terry Gilbert. Terry, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Terry Gilbert (00:50):
Yeah. So I'm a lawyer. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I've been involved in criminal justice reform in my entire career. I am also affiliated with Sugar Arts for the last, I think, three years because of their commitment to criminal justice reform, particularly working with the Wrongful Conviction community. And they have a exhibit there called The Garden of Hope, which honors all the people in Ohio that have been exonerated over a number of years. And I know we have 40 plus butterflies on a sculpture, and every year we have a gathering where we celebrate the freedom of those who were wrongfully convicted.

Chris Schmitt (01:39):
That that's awesome. And we actually have one of those butterflies with us here today. Right to my left is Laurice Glover. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Laurice Glover (01:46):
I'm Laurice Glover. I'm blessed to have a butterfly on that exhibit. Unfortunately, it is a lot that's still behind in there that's still fighting for their freedom. So, you know, these days, like I try to be a voice for those people. I'm often out speaking at different speaking engagements about room for convictions and just try to bring awareness for the people that's still in there fighting for their freedom.

Chris Schmitt (02:07):
Great. And we have a third gentleman right across from me today. Brian Johnson. How, how are you involved in this group?

Brian Keith Johnson (02:12):
Hello, my name is Brian Keith Johnson, and I've been involved with this project for about six years now. I'm a retired music teacher and a professional opera singer, and I've got involved with Karen Prosser and we met several years ago. Well, we've known each other for a long time and got involved with this project. I'm playing the character of Ricky Jackson in the opera Blind Injustice. And we got to meet several years ago and found out that we are very close in age and have a lot of similar situations with law enforcement and forgiveness and how you deal with things on daily basis.

Chris Schmitt (02:43):
That's awesome. So lemme tell everybody about the, about the project itself. So the called Blind Injustice, it's coming to Playhouse Square, July 11th, 12th, and 13th. You can buy tickets on playhouse square.org. The opera is intended as a groundbreaking way to tell stories about wrongful conviction, true stories about wrongful conviction. It was originally commissioned by the Cincinnati Opera, debuted in 2019 to five sold out performances, then it came to New York City and was at the Lincoln Center for a while. In 2025, it's received critical a claim for its powerful storytelling and innovative use of jazz rap, blues and gospel. This compelling work is based on Mark God say's, book of the same name, and recounts the harrowing journeys of six Ohio exonerees who had their convictions overturned through the work of the Ohio Innocence Project. With 40% of the opera's text derived directly from exonerees interviews, blind injustice delivers an unfiltered, deeply moving experience that resonates with audiences. Story of six lives, 118 years wrongfully incarcerated, and one story of exoneration

Opera Dialog (03:46):
Laurice Glover, Derek Wheat, Eugene Johnson, AKA, the East Cleveland three, only 17 years old, 16, actually convicted for homicide in 1996 on the testimony of a 14-year-old girl.

Chris Schmitt (04:10):
Terry, you've spent your life challenging the flaw in the the legal system. Can you talk a little bit about how you got passionate about wrongful conviction and what your, what your career has looked like around that issue?

Terry Gilbert (04:21):
So this goes back to the early nineties when the forensic science of DNA emerged. I was working with the two founders of the New York Innocence Project, Barry Shack and Peter Neufeld. We were working on a criminal case involving the Hell's Angels, which was the first FBI laboratory work on DNA. We were challenging DNA at that time, but we learned a lot about it. The idea came up, well, if you can prosecute people based on DNA, why not exonerate them with DNA? Because it's such a powerful tool. And as most people know, it's been the focus of these innocence projects for many, many years to use DNA to get new trials, get people outta prison and move on in their lives. We now have our own project up here in Higa County based on my name at CSU Law Wrongful Conviction Clinic. And we just started in 2023 and we're already getting masses of letters and requests for help.

Terry Gilbert (05:35):
We'll be filing some cases in the near future. But I also was involved in the early period of this movement because we always assumed in our country that eyewitness identification is the pinnacle of strong evidence. It's not. And the DNA process revealed that many of the assumptions that people have regarding how a jury trial is handled and what a conviction amounts to is based on flawed evidence. You have even bad science that was used, and I can get, I don't have time to get into it, but that was the basis for Mark Gotti's book, blind Injustice. And so apparently there were people out there in, in the music business, in the opera business who saw that as an entree to an opera mm-hmm <affirmative>. Using the stories of the people that, at least six people among thousands who went through this unspeakable ordeal and trauma over what they went through. I am so happy to be part of Cha Grin Arts and the staff there and Karen that merges arts with social justice. This opera is going to open people's eyes.

Music (07:10):
The scene of the crime is stuffed with

Music (07:17):
Blame us if we pick.

Chris Schmitt (07:25):
I love the use of media to clear up some of those misperceptions. I think that's where TV and movies have done us no favors in terms of how they portray criminal investigations. I mean, a lot of times you see on Law and Order, it's the every murder solved conclusively in under an hour. And I think that that's how the public often sees what happens in these, in these trials. And, and so the thought of, oh, well, there's always going to be that fingerprint that proves everything. There's always going to be that eye witness that you mentioned that's gonna prove everything. And the reality is that criminal justice system is, is far messier than that. It's far more detail oriented than that. Yeah. And so we often find situations that a, a jury goes into a jury room thinking that they have to solve the case in under an hour because that's, that's been portrayed for them. But as you said, the science and the art, both of criminal investigations leaves a lot to be desired.

Terry Gilbert (08:13):
But it's be, it's gone beyond science now. Like for example, Ricky Jackson, who Bryant is playing in the opera, along with two others that I was representing, they were convicted and sentenced to death because of the th fraudulent testimony of a 12-year-old boy who was co coerced and threatened by the Cleveland Police Department in 1975. Luckily, they weren't executed because the US Supreme Court overturned it at the time, the death penalty. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. But it was an amazing story because after 40 years, that kid came forward now in his fifties Yeah. And broke down and admitted what happened. And he had carried, he, he was a victim too, because he had to carry the difficulty of living Sure. Because of what he did. Yeah.

Music (09:09):
We committed all crime, but we was witness to a crime. We couldn't believe what they were saying. We told them what we saw.

Chris Schmitt (09:31):
Luis, can you tell us a little bit about how you wound up in your situation? Just walk us through what that process looked like before you ended up in prison.

Laurice Glover (09:39):
So my situation actually happened in 1995. Me and two of my closest childhood friends witnessed a crime in East Cleveland. It was an altercation between two males. One of the males put out a gun, started shooting. I sped off in the truck afterwards and later that night, you know, we was arrested. We was arrested. Detectives told us, somebody told them that us three was in the vehicle. A shooting occurred. We sped off from the scene and we was the suspects. Fast forward a year later, we on trial, we sitting on trial. We got arrested. I was 16. My two friends was 17 year later we 17, 18. And they had a 14-year-old girl that come to court and testify against us. And it's crazy how, how Terry was talking about Ricky Jackson. Them case happened in 1975 with, with three males and a 12-year-old came to court and testified against them.

Laurice Glover (10:30):
Our case was like similar 20 years later from that day. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Three males, but a 14-year-old girl come to court and testify against us. So it kind of like, they ran the same thing right. Back 20 years later. You know, we in trial for it and for myself, like, I always tried to, I don't know, I think kind of be like optimistic about it. 'cause It's like, okay, we went from juvenile where it's a chance that our fate just lies in one judge hand. So it's like maybe us getting bond over might be better for our situation. So I'm thinking about it on that point, but then it's on the flip side, like, why am I even on trial for something I saw? Like, that just made no sense either, you know? So halfway through trial, I remember my lawyer came to me and he said, you know, the prosecutors, the prosecution came to me with this deal to give to you.

Laurice Glover (11:16):
If you get on the court on the stand and testify that your friend Eugene, the one that killed Clifton Hudson, which was the victim, that you can go home, you can walk out the door right now, you can go home, be with your family. I had just had a daughter. My daughter wasn't even two months old. You can go be with your family, live your life. And there was just no way I could do that. Yeah. You know? So I turned the deal down and we ended up getting found guilty, 15 years of life for me, 18 years of life where Derek and Eugene, and during our sentencing, the judge actually said that we ordered to go to solitary confinement every year on the anniversary of Clifton's death to think about what we did. And if he can give us more time, he would. Wow.

Laurice Glover (11:57):
And it was like, that's when the, like the rollercoaster rides begun. And our first three years in prison, the solitary confinement thing never happened. And then that fourth year, I was just remember getting woke up February 10th telling me to pack all of my stuff up. I was gonna solitary confinement. And I didn't even realize that it was February 10th at the time. Like I didn't even know, you know, and the officers that was working the dorm was our regular officer. So they was there five days a week mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I remember once I got downstairs with all of my stuff, the officer said you know what today's date is? And I had to think about it. I'm like, it's February 10th. And once as soon as I said the words, I realized what was going, what was about to happen, we was going to the hole for one day.

Music (12:41):
When you go into the hole and you hear that door slam, it's like a,

Laurice Glover (12:53):
To think about the crime that we so-called committed. So that happened for like two years throughout the 20 years that we end up serving of the room for conviction. But

Chris Schmitt (13:01):
So 20 years. 20

Laurice Glover (13:02):
Years.

Chris Schmitt (13:03):
So how does the the Innocence Project come to be a part of your life?

Laurice Glover (13:07):
We actually didn't get in contact with the Innocence Project till we was in for 10 years after being in there for 10 years, years after the conviction of, so in our case, state's only witness recount testimony. We had like nine years in.

Opera Dialog (13:22):
I was 14 years old. I told the police what they wanted to hear. I didn't get a good enough look to identify the shooter.

Laurice Glover (13:33):
We had a attorney that came to see us and he said, you know, I'm gonna take the case pro bono, but I'm only gonna file for Eugene first because this is what got you guys convicted. And if the judge grant this, then we're gonna come back and grant it for you. We gonna come back and follow the motion for you guys. So it actually went through for Eugene. Everything went through. He got out, judge granted a new trial. He got out on Bond.

Music (13:55):
Eugene, Eugene is free. Eugene,

Music (13:59):
He

Music (13:59):
Is walking through the gate. Eugene

Music (14:02):
Is free.

Music (14:05):
I can read

Music (14:08):
Is free,

Music (14:09):
I can see God, all the colors dancing in. My son

Music (14:17):
Is free.

Laurice Glover (14:18):
So me and Derek went to this attorney was like, well, you know, are you gonna follow paperwork for us? And he was like, well, I think it'll be a conflict of interest. So he didn't. And after Eugene was out for 10 months, eighth district court of appeals reversed. The judge decision sent Eugene back. So that's how we got involved with the Innocence Project. Somehow Eugene had heard about him and he had reached out to him and they told him, well, you already got counsel you, so we don't represent people that already got counsel. So that's when me and Derek reached out to him. And they took our case in 2006. It still took like us another nine years before we actually walked out after the incident project started working on our case.

Chris Schmitt (14:56):
So tell me about the day that you walked out

Laurice Glover (14:59):
Af Oh, the day that I walked out, day that I walked out was like the best day of my life, <laugh>. And I always tell people when I talk about that day as like, I consider myself blessed to have two birthdays because I consider the day I was born, it's my birthday and the day I walked outta prison for that room for conviction, it's my birthday. I feel like I got my life back after 20 years at that point in time. Like I had did more time in prison than I actually did on the streets. So that's like one of the happiest days of my life. And sometimes when I get caught up in moments to where I feel like overwhelmed or I feel stressed out, sometimes I google our story and go back and watch that day. And it, it just brightens my day because I get to see that moment to that's like one of the happiest days of my life.

Chris Schmitt (15:40):
That's amazing. So tell me about how your story is portrayed in blind injustice.

Laurice Glover (15:45):
So I remember going to Cincinnati for when the talks of blind injustice was getting started. And I remember gonna sit through all these different workshops and I just, I couldn't visualize how I was gonna be because I never had actually been to a opera before <laugh>. So I didn't know, you know, so I was anxious to see like how I was going to transform into these stories about all of these different individuals. And I'm good friends with Nancy, Clarence, Ricky, and of course my two guys. So I remember when they premiered in Cincinnati and we was down there for like, I think a whole week actually. And I went to every performance of it and it just got better and better each time I sat through it. But it was, I was amazed at how they was able to tell these stories through a opera. I just, I couldn't even visualize it until I actually saw it with my own eyes.

Chris Schmitt (16:31):
<Laugh>. That's amazing. And so Brian, you're one of the guys who brings this this, this opera and this story to, to life playing Ricky Jackson. How did, how did you get involved in the, in the opera in the first place? How did you find out about this project? 

Brian Keith Johnson (16:43):
It was Karen. We went to a couple of fundraising events and I got to meet some of the exonerees. And Ricky was there the first meeting. This was five or six years ago. Then we got, you know, un derailed because of COVID. But just talking with Ricky and realizing that we were closer in age and had some similar experiences. I'm not gonna say that anything I had ever gone through was anything close to what he had gone through. But just talking to a fellow man of color about some things. We had a lot of similar things growing up.

Music (17:14):
We pointed out as a perpetrator by this kid that was supposed to have seen us commit.

Brian Keith Johnson (17:32):
And as I was a teacher and I taught for 35 years, I was always one of the only few minorities on every staff that I've been in. I've been probably in 10 buildings. And I always thought it is my duty as an African American male to tell the different things I've been through and was able to get out of, because I had a cool head and didn't get, and didn't get, you know, like I was, when I was 20, for instance, kids always ask me, and I taught high school for 27 years, and they always ask me, have you ever had any situation with the police? And I said, yes. And I said, well, have you ever had a gun pulled on you? I said, yes. And I said, I've had a gun pulled on me three times in my life. All three times were by the police.

Brian Keith Johnson (18:13):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And, and two of the times were when I called the police myself mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I've learned most recently last year or a year ago, that when they come and they pull their guns on me and just start screaming obscenities at me mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, I, I raise my hands, put everybody where they can see me. I say my CCW status, I tell them everything they want to hear or that they need to hear. Mm-Hmm. And then I say, can you do me one favor, please. Then they're, they're screaming at me and cussing. I say, first of all, I can hear you don't have to scream, you don't have to yell. I'm being absolutely compliant. Could you do me one favor? What? And I said, well, could you please call dispatch and see who made the call? And then I keep my hands up, but can I put my hands down now?

Brian Keith Johnson (18:53):
Yes. And they say, dispatch who called this call in, they say there was a, a Brian Johnson, he was an African American male. He's gonna be on a black motorcycle. He's gonna have his motorcycle running. And had I not done that sure, who knows would've happened. This is six guns pulled on me and I was the one who called. And I, I had to go specifically from, this is the British motorcycle, the ignition's on the left hand. 'cause They're like, start off the bike. Cut off the bike. Yeah. And the ignition's on the left hand side. Can I reach down here and could I, but had I not had so many experiences before one in my own home Sure. Where a gun was put at the back of my head. And it's crazy. But when I tell my high school kids this, I tell 'em exactly what happened.

Brian Keith Johnson (19:35):
And when they get in the situations with the police, I, they know I have a lot of police officer friends and colleagues. So I say, Hey, let me do some checking and find out what happened. And then I will go to the police. I will go to the parent and say, this is off the record, of course, but this is what happened. And I tell your, my kids say, well, you're an international opera singer, you know, I said, I don't wear that. I don't wear a t-shirt that says International opera singer. Yeah. But I do wear my skin a hundred percent of the time. And no one sees international opera singer. They see, they see your skin. And of course I have to realize what that means or what that potentially means to an officer. Yeah. I have to be absolutely calm, absolutely know what I'm going to say and calm and how I say it when I ask who was my biggest inspiration, I say Ricky Jackson.

Brian Keith Johnson (20:20):
Mm-Hmm. I've only met him a few times because the one thing I kept hanging onto was when he was even offered to be off of death row. He said, no, I'm not gonna ever admit to any one part of what I didn't do. Just like Larice said, he was not gonna put throw his friend under the bus, even though that would've meant he would've been free. And I said to a black man, this day and age, the most important thing I have to me is my name. And it's not only my name, it's my wife's name. Sure. So I'm not gonna admit to anything to let people sleep better at night when I know I didn't do anything.

Chris Schmitt (20:54):
Something that both LAR and Brian mentioned Terry, that I wanted to ask you about, is this coercion that often comes along from prosecutors looking to get a deal done, looking to confess to something you didn't do in exchange for less time or in exchange for less risk. Is that something you've seen? A lot?

Terry Gilbert (21:11):
A lot of it in fact, even after you go through the process of post-conviction remedies, which could take 10 years, he said, yeah, 10 years, 20 years, you get a new trial and the prosecutor will come to you and your lawyer and say, why don't we just give you time served, plead guilty to something. And the reason for that is they do not want the state to compensate them for the years of pain and suffering being a wrongfully convicted individual. There is a remedy under Ohio Law where you can go forward and once you're exonerated, you could get some compensation. Yeah. But our prosecutor over and over again has used that ploy. Okay. Because then they get a, a guilty verdict, even though the person like l like Laurice said, I would never admit to this mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and after he wins, why would they even think that he would even again, take a deal just to, just to get out.

Terry Gilbert (22:21):
It is a common practice among prosecutors. Isaiah Andrews, for example, 45 years for a crime he didn't commit. They accused them of killing his wife, but they had another suspect that had arrested, but never revealed to the lawyers. In his case, he's 83 years now. On the day of the trial, I was in the room with the judge and the prosecutor, the prosecutor said, you're committing malpractice because you're not telling your client to take a deal for time served. That's not how it works. And I said, are you kidding? First of all, I would never do that. And an 83-year-old man who's basically terminally ill, he was in a wheelchair and had a feeding tube in the trial, and the jury came back in an hour and a half, not guilty. Two jurors in that trial came to hi. He died a few months later as a free man. The two juror jurors came to his funeral and honored him and said it was the most horrible experience to see what those prosecutors were doing. So this is, this is a problem.

Chris Schmitt (23:40):
And, and that's something we we talk about a lot at the bar is the, the difference in, in capital J Justice and Little J Justice. Right. Little j Justice being the system. It's the, the system's goal to get to an end, the system's goal to either convict or acquit someone to get to a, a remedy, to get to a transfer of wealth in a civil case. Right. It's, that's the goal. But capital J Justice is a very different concept. It's right and wrong. Often I think lawyers find themselves in the, in the trap of thinking so much about the system, thinking so much about Little J Justice that we, we forget what drove a lot of us to go to law school in the first place, which is the, the capital J. Right. It's, it's, it's situations like Larissa's that it's a, you wind up changing the course of someone's life because getting the accomplishment, getting the checkbox that you had put this murderer quote unquote away versus actually seeking the truth of the matter. And Laurice, when you think back to your experience with the court process, when you think back to your experience going through as a very young man, right, 16, 17, how did you adjust to the reality that knowing you were innocent and saying you were innocent wasn't going to be enough?

Laurice Glover (24:51):
It took being behind them walls and, you know, it's a way that that cell door closed when you get back there to make it just all sink in. And I just knew for me that that wasn't my end. And like, I just couldn't let you know. They, they come with this conviction. And that's just it for me. Like, like I said, like when I got convicted, I was 17 years old. Like, I haven't even got a chance to live life yet. I didn't even know what I wanted to be. That just wasn't my end. And you know, I just told myself like, I gotta keep fighting. And I found myself in situations in there where your family is going through so much money trying to prove that first for your defense, and then just trying to prove your innocence after the conviction. It wasn't a lot of resources that was available for my family, you know, so they didn't really know what they were supposed to do.

Laurice Glover (25:44):
All we thinking that we gotta just keep coming up with all this money to try to retain these different attorneys and, you know, back in them days and even now, like to, to get a retainer for a lawyer on a case that's a murder case or a capital murder case. Like you coming off at least starting off at $10,000 or better. Yeah. You know, so that was like a hard deal. And I, I, I found myself one time, I think I was in for like seven years and I didn't have like anything going on in court. Nothing. And one thing about being in prison is like no matter if you got a support team out there that's sending you money and doing all these things, you still in survival mode. Yeah. You in you in this place where, I mean, anything goes in there, you know, so to go in that kind of environment and not even, I didn't even know what I was walking into.

Laurice Glover (26:35):
Like, it was kind of like what you see on tv. You thinking of what you see on TV is like, is this what what I'm walking into? You know, when, when I said I found myself after I was in there for like seven years, I didn't have anything going on in court. I'm like, I mean, what am I gonna do? Like, it's like I got two options. Like if the girl that testified against us rec can't, I feel like that's how I can get out. Or if the real killer like turned itself in and I didn't see any of them. Things happen at the time. Yeah. So I found myself in there and in jail drugs is like probably like 10 times more expensive in jail than we would be on the streets. So then I caught myself, found myself in one of 'em situations where like I was like, well maybe if I just try to get these drugs in and I could sell these drugs and I can pay this money to get this high powered attorney. And I went with my plan and it collapsed.

Chris Schmitt (27:20):
So what a choice do I have to make though?

Laurice Glover (27:22):
I know right. <Laugh>,

Chris Schmitt (27:23):
I need to commit another felony to prove that he didn't commit the other felony. Right. Right.

Laurice Glover (27:27):
And that's, that's why, that's exactly what happened. I caught another felony and I didn't think, apparently, I didn't think this all the way through because I ended up, I had my oldest sister to helping me with this plan. And it was another guy that I knew from in prison. Like, we put it together. But I had my sister on the outside send it. And when it collapsed, it only collapsed on me and my sister because the other guy, he told everything. Sure. And it was like you said, I could, I caught another felony to try to prove I was not guilty of another felony. So it was like,

Chris Schmitt (27:57):
And that happens so much. You see people that wind up in the system as Terry well knows in a young age, and it's the, it's, it's hard to escape that cycle once you find yourself in it. And that's what Ryan, you were talking about earlier, about some of the realities of being a, a young black man in America. Right. And, and that you find yourselves in situations that may lead themselves to a, a really tragic end, a wrongful conviction or or even worse than that, not walking away from the situation. And so, Brian, I wanna talk about Ricky Jackson in particular. Can you tell us about Ricky Jackson as, as the character that he's presented at in the, in the opera?

Brian Keith Johnson (28:31):
I believe it's a, it's a, well obviously it's an obvious really great representation of Ricky because 40% of the, of the text is taken from the actual court documents. And from talking with him, realizing that within, within 10 age 10 years of each other, it is, especially I important to me. And as I've said, I've been a professional opera singer for 35 years, and though I've played a hundred different characters, and the job is to really get inside the character. And, and you're not telling the story as Brian, you're telling the story as you know, Rigoletto, you're telling the story as fto. But with this story I have told everyone, I said, this may be, well, this is the most important performance of my life. Is it, is it the hardest vocally? No. Is it the hardest? I mean, in terms of learn the music?

Brian Keith Johnson (29:13):
No, but I relate more with this character in this life because it's about a young black man. And, and I have been there and an older black man. I am there now. And this particular role is something that I've been waiting to play all my life. And I always said, oh, I want to play, you know, Sweeney Todd all my life. Oh, I want to play co house walker in rag time all my life. But when this project came up, I realized that that's nothing compared to telling Ricky's story. And Cuyahoga County is the center of wrongful convictions in the country, which is why it is so important to do this opera here in Cleveland. And when we went, when Karen and I went to New York and my wife went, I've always been very emotional about certain things that are very important to me. And I could not believe that I could not stop crying before the opera even started. We were there in New York and I,

Brian Keith Johnson (30:10):
And I just couldn't control myself before the opera. And then, you know, I'm saying, Karen, I'm gonna need a whole box of Kleenex to get through this. And then when we got through with, when we got through with the opera and seeing the opera, I found myself so angry that I, I had no tears in my eyes from sadness. It was all tears from anger and how the injustice all these people had gone through and still pulled through. So when I think of whatever minor things I've gone through in my life, I have to look at them and say, Hey, you know, God put you here for a reason. And I think if nothing else, it's for me to put my interpretation of this story out there. And then when I talk with people about different things, about Ricky's story, I can relate things and say how I feel so close to him because we're, we've been through some of the same things.

Brian Keith Johnson (31:07):
But like I said, my biggest inspiration is Ricky because he said he will never admit to anything that he did. Just so other people could feel better. And I feel the exact same way. So that's what I'm bringing to this. So I hope that I can get through this production and just, I know I'm gonna give it everything I have, but I hope I can do it justice for all the exonerees. 'cause That is my goal. I'm not doing it for Brian, I'm doing it for all those who came before me. And that's what I wanna bring to this production. And I know that all of us in the production are gonna bring that to them.

Chris Schmitt (31:46):
Terry, I I know every lawyer goes into the business hoping to make a difference in the world. I, I can't imagine you went into the business thinking, I hope I make a difference. And then that difference becomes an opera. Tell me about the first time you heard about this story. What this, this crazy idea to turn this this person that you had represented into this musical production.

Terry Gilbert (32:05):
I heard about it when it first opened in Cincinnati, an opera <laugh> went on a rock and roll show <laugh>. But no, I got it together. I remember being at the House of Blues mm-hmm <affirmative>. For a benefit for OIP some years ago. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And we were in a backstage room and I remember Mark Ze introducing us to the director, writer. They were talking about it and they were just beginning the process. And I thought that was a really wonderful thing. And then I got involved with Chagrin Arts. And I have to tell you that Karen Prosser dedicated so much time, so much effort, raising money, going to community groups, foundations to sell an opera about criminal justice in the climate that we're in. Yeah. I mean, it's an amazing process for her and us at Cha Arts to get this done. I hope that people that are listening to this get on the phone or on the computer and buy tickets for the July 11th opening night or the 12th and the 13th, and be part of this both ins inspirational work of art plus a teaching lesson for all of us about the flaws in our criminal justice system.

Terry Gilbert (33:32):
I wanna make one more comment. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Most of the cases that you hear about and that takes so long, is because we can't get the records. Even the lawyers ask for public records requests over and over again and they play games. They deny, they say it's confidential, it's work product or whatever. Yeah. And now it's gonna get worse. There's the bill right now that's in the general assembly that will even further curtail the information that you can get from the prosecutors, from the police. And this is a blow to our work. And for those out there who have influence with your senators and your representatives in Ohio, right. Called Tell 'em don't, don't vote Yes on this bill because it's gonna eliminate accountability.

Chris Schmitt (34:25):
I know when I started at the bar almost a year ago now, my first meeting with Brennan, our media director who produces this podcast, I got to the very end of our intake meeting and learned a lot about Brennan, a lot about the things we were working on. And it got to the end and I said, anything else? And he said, oh yeah, one more thing. We're we're involved in an opera, it's about wrongful conviction. It's coming to Cleveland and we should absolutely support it. And I remember thinking we're, wait, we're what? Like, that doesn't sound like something that a, a bar association's involved in. That doesn't sound right. And I was just blown away by the work itself, what I was able to find online, but also just the story behind it. I know we keep talking about it in an opera, but it's really it's a lot of different s of music, Brian. Right. It's jazz and it's blues and it's gospel and it's pop music. And so we keep saying opera, but opera is really the form and not the the actual music.

Brian Keith Johnson (35:14):
Right, right. Exactly. It's, it's got something for everyone. And which is why I think it's so diverse and so appealing to the general public. It's gonna be an hour and 45 minutes or I 30 minutes with no intermission. So once you're there, you're there and you're in it the whole time. I was always kind of curious as well, I'm gonna need a break after the first act 'cause I gotta get my emotions together. Sure. So I can come back and do it. But I was able to go through the whole show and I just think it's gonna be important that you don't have time to catch your breath and think until the whole thing is over. Yeah. So you are immersed in the opera the whole time. And one of the things that I realized, just for listening to it, my wife happens to be in the opera, it's gonna be in the chorus as well. So we able to do this together. But I tell her the thing that gets me the most is the part where they, it's called what the children say and the, the power of the mob mentality. These girls just said something that happened and all of a sudden it's believed

Speaker 9 (36:07):
The first time was a pizza drove us to school. No, Nancy didn't drive you to school. No, Nancy didn't drive us to school.

Brian Keith Johnson (36:22):
If a certain group of people says something against you, it gains traction and grows and grows and grows. But the power of the mob mentality is very scary. That happens all the time. And I see that in, in Crime dramas. And people will see that in this story. That's one of the things I hope people really talk about how kids are used. They're used as puppets in this story to convict Nancy, a bus driver. And it's, it's very frightening. It, it's very eerie when you hear it's kind of like Freddie Kruger music, you know, one, two Freddy's coming for you, but it's the voices of all these young girls Yeah. Saying that this happened on a Friday. No, it was a Monday. Them being fed the story that they're supposed to tell. Yeah. And then ultimately that getting to be what convicts Nancy, it's, it's unbelievable. But this really happened, this is not 8,000 years ago. This is now. And I think that's what really drew me to the project and so much reality and so much things that, like I said, people need to talk about. If we can start talking about it, then we have a chance.

Chris Schmitt (37:23):
So Laurice, what's it, what's it like to see yourself on stage? <Laugh>?

Laurice Glover (37:28):
Like, like I said, like I went to like all of the workshops. So like, it actually was like everything that I explained to them about my experience with the judicial system and everything that happened to me along that 20 year journey. Like, I saw it play out. And it's the, the craziest thing is like, I remember at one of the workshops, you know, I was telling them about, like, one of my darkest moments was when I was in there, I actually went to the hole for something I didn't do at that time. I had like 16 years in and it was like, everything just started just going bad. Like I went to the hole for something I didn't do. So it's like, bad enough, I'm in jail for a room for conviction. Now you got me in the hole for something I didn't do. And I was close to going up for parole.

Laurice Glover (38:08):
So I was explaining to them at the workshop, like, like I almost lost my spirit in that moment. Like, everything bad can happen, can happen. And the Hova, something I didn't do, my daughter was getting in trouble. Her my, her mom had sent me a letter asking me can I call and talk to her? I couldn't even call. I'm in the hole. And just court things started going bad and I just feel like my spirit was like almost broke. And during that moment, I had a cousin that was from Columbus that reached out to me. And, you know, I was explaining to her all the things that was going on in my life at that time. And she just started sending me all these Bible scriptures and that helped pull me outta that place that I was in. And to see that conversation that I had with them at the workshop and to see it play out on stage was, it was amazing to me. <Laugh>

Music (39:05):
In the, she,

Laurice Glover (39:09):
I remember the character that played me. Like he was just kept saying the hole. Like, and it kind of took me back to that place. 'cause Like I said, like in jail, like, it's like when they put you in one of those places, like the hole, they put you in there and they take everything that you got and then you just hear the door just slam. So like, seeing that play that out, like it took me back to that moment. But it, it was great. It was great. It was like kind of like raw uncut footage. Mm-Hmm

Speaker 10 (39:34):
<Affirmative>.

Chris Schmitt (39:34):
Yeah. Well, thank you all for being here today. I really do hope that Cleveland turns out and sells out that theater for those three productions that are coming up. Again, for everybody listening, that's July 11th, 12th, and 13th at Playhouse Square. You can buy tickets@playhousesquare.org. We'd love for you to go see Blind Injustice and we hope to continue to tell these stories and have these important conversations. So gentlemen, thank you. Thank you, thank

Laurice Glover (39:59):
You. Thank you.

Speaker 11 (40:00):
The Ohio Innocence Project has freed 28 people who have served a total of more than 500 years in prison. We have thousands more cases. We will keep telling their stories. I.