My BarStory S03E05 - Raising the Bar for Women in Law

Did you know that women are more than 50% of law school graduates, but have only 20% of senior management positions in U.S. law firms? That's just one of the compelling issues facing women in law. In this episode of My BarStory, we look forward from International Women's Day with a powerful discussion including new data from an Ohio state-wide survey of attorneys. These four accomplished women share their own stories of microaggressions and disrespect in the courtroom and the boardroom. Most importantly, they give us strategies for dealing with it.

Speakers:

Bethany Studenic
Of Counsel, Sobel, Wade & Mapley

Kami D. Brauer
Employment Law Partners, LLC

Ann-Marie Ahern
Co-Managing Principal, McCarthy Lebit

Kelley Barnett,
Senior Vice President, Senior Managing Counsel
AmTrust Financial

Transcript

Melanie Farrell (00:06):
This is Melanie Farrell, c NBA's Chief Relationship Officer as the CBA celebrated another International Women's Day in March. We wanted to share a powerful conversation from our panel entitled Raising The Bar, A Continuing Discussion. Four, accomplished Attorneys Share their ideas about the progress women have made and the very big challenges ahead. Listen as these leaders talk about the next phase of empowering women in the law.

Kami Brauer (00:33):
My name is Kami Brower and I'm a partner at Employment Law Partners and Employee Side Labor and Employment Firm. I'm also the treasurer of the High Women's Bar Association. It's one of the organizations that's sponsoring the C MBA's International Women's Day events, and I'm also moderating today's program. Before I introduce our fabulous panel, I just wanted to give a brief overview about raising the Raising the Bar Initiative Ra. The Raising the Bar Initiative is, was sponsored by, or is sponsored by the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association Women Law Section and the Ohio Women's Bar Association. And along with Alight and Solutions, which is an organization that was co-founded by our panelists today, Bethany Nik. Our mission is to create a safe and confidential space for women in the legal profession in Ohio who experience gender bias discrimination or harassment to privately discuss their experiences, seek advice, and or take action.

Kami Brauer (01:32):
The genesis or idea for this initiative came from, it was kickstarted by attorney Kelly Barnett, who's on our panel today, and also Professor Jennifer Cooper with the case Western Reserve School of Law. And with that, I wanna introduce our panel again. We have Bethany Studenic, who is not only the co-founder for light and solutions, but is also of counsel for the law firm of Sobel Wade and Mapley, which is Austin Employee Side Labor and Employment Firm. We also have Ann-Marie Ahearn, who's the co-managing principal at the law firm of McCarthy Labett, and also practices employee side labor and employment law. And then lastly, we have Kelly Barnett, who is the senior Vice President and Senior managing Counsel for AmTrust Financial. And we are gonna start with Bethany Studenic, who created a survey that was distributed by the CMBA and the Ohio Women's Bar Association that some of you may have completed to learn about women's experiences in the legal profession. And Bethany collected that data and interpreted the survey results that she'll be discussing today. So with that, I will turn it to Bethany.

Bethany Studenic (02:40):
Thanks, Kami. Very excited to be here today in this conversation, I wanna root us in the concept that making better workplaces for any group makes better workplaces for everyone. What I mean by that, it's this concept of targeted universalism. It means setting shared goals for everyone while making specific adjustments to help those who face unique challenges. Basically, it boils down to when women thrive, we all thrive. To talk a little bit about the methodology of the survey we utilized a survey type called phenomenological research. And basically this is a fancy data science word for looking at the lived experience of a particular group. And we paired that with both qualitative and quantitative metrics. I find this very impactful in our work because whenever you're talking about data, it can be very easy to kind of lose the story and the impact behind those statistics.

Bethany Studenic (03:32):
And so it's important to pair not only the quantitative metrics, but the stories behind and the impact behind each of those metrics. To tell you a little bit about who took the survey, we had 115 responses from women attorneys all across Ohio. Our respondents ranged in age from 26 to over 61. We had respondents that had about a decade of experience, but of course, we had folks with less and more experience, and most respondents work in firms with over a hundred attorneys, followed by a tie between smaller firms and in-house counsel roles. Although we had a sprinkling of a lot of different roles and representation, our respondents are 87% white, 12% black, 4% Hispanic, 3% Asian. A lot of this focus is on microaggressions. And microaggressions are important to understand because they're one of the main driving factors that are moving women out of this profession or moving them into different careers.

Bethany Studenic (04:22):
It can be one of the biggest barriers that women face, and it's a broad array of different exclusionary behaviors and tactics. And we'll go over some of them today. Part of the, the basis of this research is to understand what are some of those tactics and behaviors that are creating these outcomes that we're seeing that really result in inequalities for women in the legal profession. Here's a few being interrupted or spoken over, the expectation of non-attorney labor. So assuming that women attorneys are gonna be the one to take notes or make coffee or set up the birthday parties for everybody in the office being talked down to, or condescended to being paid less the male counterparts mistaken for non-attorney staff the list kind of goes on and on. And I do encourage you to read the full report, believe there's a link available so you can get into each of the percentages here.

Bethany Studenic (05:11):
And there's even more, right? We measured a lot of different behaviors and we created these behaviors based on conversations with women attorneys. These are some of the things that they talked about when they talked about the challenges that they're facing in their careers. And you'll see towards the end, we even have some that are very egregious, right? So we have things that are, you know, difficult to deal with and they might be things that you kind of navigate in the moment. And then there are things that are really, really concerning behavior. So we have things like unwelcome physicality, we have derogatory names. And so those things, sometimes I talk to folks and they think maybe we've moved on from that as a profession, but I wanna be clear that those things are still happening. In our local law firms, the most common top five microaggressions, 98% experience being interrupted or spoken over, 96% were experienced being talked down to, or condescended to 90% knew that they were paid less than coworkers.

Bethany Studenic (06:06):
And that's always an interesting one to me because this statistic indicates that they know, right that they're being paid less. So we assume that the statistic could be higher For women who don't know their, their, the salary of their peers, 92% were mistaken for other staff, like court reporters receptionists, et cetera. And 93% had the experience of being expected to give non-attorney labor going above and beyond their actual job. 86% talked about family and caregiving. And this is an interesting one because this was from open-ended responses. So participants brought this up as an issue. Whenever we asked them about their experiences, family and caregiving was the number one thing that came up. And we have a couple of stories here, having to work harder than male counterparts to build up goodwill to last me through maternity leaves without being looked over by others.

Bethany Studenic (06:56):
This is a huge challenge for women attorneys in this region, and I'd like to make the point, bringing it back to targeted universalism. Men struggle with this too. A recent Pew survey found that six in 10 men also feel that they don't spend enough time with their children. If we're able to address this for women, we're also able to address this for men. This is a unified goal, but we do also acknowledge that women are disproportionately dealing with this burden. And so it's important that we focus on building better and more inclusive spaces for women at work. 90% of our respondents have been paid less than similarly situated male attorneys. The quote here, making less money than my male counterparts for equal or superior work. Often the bar is really high for women as well. So not only are we dealing with additional work we're dealing with, we have to give higher quality work, and then we're being paid less for it.

Bethany Studenic (07:46):
So it can be very, very grueling for female attorneys in this field. One thing I want to point out about this too is that every time that we underpay a woman, we devalue our whole profession. This is a well-documented phenomenon. It's something that happens as women take over or go into male dominated fields. We watch salaries go down for everyone across the board, because every time you underpay a woman, you're undermining that ability for negotiation. You're driving down the average salary for everybody I know we all wanna have, we all wanna be able to bill <laugh> at good rates. And so every time you know that we're devaluing a woman, we're devaluing the profession. Often people ask, why don't women just report these things? Well, 60% of respondents had never reported these issues. And there's a lot of very, very good reasons why women don't report.

Bethany Studenic (08:37):
Here's some stories talking about this. I sense that there would be repercussions if I reported it. A senior female colleague advised me against rocking the boat, cautioning that it could hinder my advancement. And I took her advice to heart. There are a lot of reasons women are concerned about how they might be treated. They're concerned about retaliation. They wanna be able to continue in their roles. What we found is that women who report mistreatment at work receive little support and face danger in their own careers. The important point here, respondents were more likely to experience retaliation than to see their harass or reprimanded or terminated. That is why women are not reporting. If you're someone who is in charge of or able to have influence on the reporting process here, the proper response is to address those complaints, not to target the woman who reported they inquired about what I wanted them to do, shifting the responsibility onto the woman instead of taking care of it themselves.

Bethany Studenic (09:28):
Right? She needed help in support in that moment. She was brave in bringing it up, and then she felt like she was being tasked with fixing everything as well. That's a very, very impossible situation to be in. We asked participants, which services if offered, would you be interested in? The top was mentorship programs. The second was policy research or recommendations. As lawyers, I know, we go to policy pretty quickly, <laugh> as a point that we wanna see a women in law complaints line or support system, healing supports and discussions and assistance with filing formal complaints. And I think it's telling that assistance filing formal complaints is the least interesting to this group. Mentorship is key plus the ability to be honest, without fear of retaliation. I could use mentorship. It would be, it would help to have discussions with older, well-established women to discuss current challenges and seek advice.

Bethany Studenic (10:21):
And for me, that has been the most impactful thing, having women that I can talk to. So, really excited to have this discussion today. Today. Last bit that I'll leave you with targeted universalism. Again, more inclusive workplaces benefit everybody. Competition diverse workforces, fair better in a volatile market. There's a whole body of research. I have whole presentations on just this point. There's so much to back that up. And lastly, the future is diverse. The workforce is rapidly diversified. Gen ZI know we think that they're all still babies, but they're actually in their twenties now. They're starting to come in to the workforce, and they are 48% racially and ethnically diverse. Women are more educated in that generation than we have ever seen. They're 33% L-G-B-T-Q. And so again, I just drive home the point that building those inclusive workplaces are gonna be really important for attracting and retaining the future of talent here.

Kami Brauer (11:13):
Thank you, Bethany. So the last time we had this discussion, we were talking about your results. We had, we were talking about these findings from the perspective of a male managing partner and also a female government attorney. So now for today, we have perspectives of female in-house counsel, and also a female managing partner. And I wanna talk first to Anne-Marie about the term that was in Bethany's slides about microaggressions and kind of what do you think about that term? And in, especially in today's context, where there's the tack on DEI initiatives and things like that.

Ann-Marie Ahern (11:46):
Certainly Bethany, that was amazing. Thank you for sharing your insights. This, it's interesting because I am not only a managing partner, but I'm a person who I think falls into that category of older, well-established female lawyers. And I've also been an advocate for women in the workplace and throughout my entire career as a litigator in employment law. So I've got a, I mean, this is so intersectionality of what we're talking about here for me mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is, is, is interesting. And it's, it's, there's sometimes some tension between your role as a manager, your role as an advocate mm-hmm <affirmative>. Your role as an advisor and your own lived experience. But when I look at this topic of microaggressions, and I looked at the, the broad category of conduct that you described as a microaggression, I actually question whether that is a label that we should be using as, as often as it's sometimes used.

Ann-Marie Ahern (12:41):
Because I think that we have to view where we are in this conversation in our progress against the current backdrop where DEI is undeniably under attack, where women who are in a position of influence and leadership are sometimes automatically assumed to have been placed there because they are a DEI hire mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so to me, that term microaggressions, although I, I don't doubt that all of that happens, those are independently injurious events that thwart progress and equality. I think that it's also a term that can be a dog whistle for people who are looking to describe the, these efforts towards equality of diversity as something that is unneeded unnecessary, provides preferential treatment. So I think that we have to be really discerning about the conduct that we're describing and really take each of those issues as they arise. And, you know, for instance, a difference in pay is a entirely different, it is an independent adverse employment action versus someone who says, oh, can you take notes in this meeting offensive as that may be. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. These are, these are vastly different situations that I think warrant their own discussions. And

Kami Brauer (13:58):
Kelly, what do you think about, again, that term, microaggressions? And what have you seen in your experience?

Kelley Barnett (14:05):
I think the data is important. The data that Bri Bethany shared is important. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I think the context and why we see these microaggressions is very important. I think it's equally important, though, to equip women with the tools and strategies so that they, they choose to address the microaggression, for example, in the moment that they, that they know how to do it. But I wanna lead that conversation off by saying, even though we're talking about things that happen in the professional workplace, I think making the decision to address a situation, whether as an ally or your own personal situation, is a very deeply personal decision. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You may choose not to address it. There's nothing wrong with that. You may choose to address it. That's okay too. The right decision for you is the decision you make. Okay. And I wanna emphasize that.

Kelley Barnett (14:57):
I think what I thought I would do is just give a couple of examples of how I've addressed a few situations that have happened to me. Some perhaps are described as microaggressions. I think things like family leave, I would describe those as macroaggressions. <Laugh>. Okay. But you know, one thing that I encountered a lot and, and I did just a few days ago is what I would call terms of endearment. For example, I was in a high stakes mediation earlier this week in this more experienced lawyer from a southern state kept referring to me as honey. Repeatedly. I was in this mediation with my executive client, several people in the room, he kept referring to me by using that word. And I chose in the moment to decide I'm gonna address that with him privately. What I did was on a break, I called him aside.

Kelley Barnett (15:52):
I said, Hey, bill, can I talk to you for a minute? That's not his real name, by the way, <laugh>, can I talk to you for a minute to protect the, no, I don't think you intended to offend me, but you did. And again, I don't think you intended to, but from here on out, can you just call me Kelly or counsel, or Ms. Barnett? Just don't call me honey. And he was very sorry. He, he was very apologetic. I you know, I think he didn't mean to offend me. He did. It was important to me, and this was my strategy. It was important to me to call it out. But what I'm also always struggling with is balancing what you might have heard about as the likability bias. And so as women, we there's a stereotype that we are supposed to be nice and, you know, go along to get along.

Kelley Barnett (16:35):
And I'm always trying to think about that bias. Unfair as it might be. It's there and it exists. So I'm always trying to think about it when I'm figuring out how to address a particular thing, whether to address it, and if so, how to address it. And so in that moment, I chose sort, sort of a private approach, a conversation. I didn't see the need to embarrass him. There'd been other situations where in the moment it was something I needed to address. Years ago when I was in court, an opposing counsel commented on my body. And in that moment, for me, what felt right was to shut it down and say, don't you can't say that to me. Don't say that to me. I was professional and I was calm. I never see a need to raise my voice in those moments, but that was how I addressed it.

Kelley Barnett (17:25):
How did your opposing counsel react when you said that? Startled. He was startled. Okay. I was calm. I was calm. I mean, again, I don't, I don't think berating somebody mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or yelling is productive. And I certainly wouldn't do that in court. He was calm. Everyone saw it. It was something that for me not the jury. We were getting, we were coming back from a recess gathering our exhibits. Sure. But it was something that I needed to do, do again, someone else might make the decision. I'm not going to address that. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. That was how I reacted. I think. Comments about maternity leave, again, very deeply personal. How you react to those? I mean, some things that I've witnessed are, you know, I'd say comments, for example. Are you sure you can, you sure you can handle that? You know, you're, you're seven months pregnant, for example, or it seems like you've slowed down since you've come back from maternity leave.

Kelley Barnett (18:16):
I've heard that a lot. I mean, to me, as offensive as it may be, remaining calm is important. And, and certainly, let's start asking questions. You know, if you're on sat, what do you mean by that? Are you unsatisfied with my performance? If you are, let's talk about it. But I'm deeply committed to the work that I do for this firm or for this organization. And I wanna talk about why you made that comment. Again, being calm and professional I think is important. One more example I'll give sure. And again, I don't wanna name names, I don't think that's productive, but I was in a con a, a phone conference with a client who's very, very senior to me, a colleague who's very, very senior to me. A lot of people on the call in and outside of my organization, someone who I would regard as a good guy, a good person, and absolutely shut me down.

Kelley Barnett (19:02):
In the middle of the conversation, Kelly stopped talking, which for anyone who knows me, is not an easy thing for me to do. I chose in the moment not to embarrass him, even though I was deeply embarrassed. And I thought that was very disrespectful, and I was also very angry. And I don't think, for me, having those conversations when you're very angry for me, is not gonna move. The ball is not gonna help raise awareness. It's gonna distract you from raising awareness, which is what a lot of these conversations are about. I had a private conversation with him later and said, you know, for the sake of our working relationship, I need you to know that I felt very disrespected. And I thought it was very unprofessional what you, what you did. Very apologetic. Very apologetic. And I've seen, just from working with this person for several years, you know, a a shift just in other conversations for, for how he reacts in conversations and how he handles conversations and for managing interruptions.

Kelley Barnett (20:08):
And I don't think he meant anything by it, which is sort of the last point I want to make. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I think some things are objectively terrible. You know, no matter who's looking at it, most people would agree that certain things are bad. Right. But I do think there's a tendency in what I, I think people ought to avoid is jumping to conclusions. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. When they, things are said to them, or when they witness things. You know, the example I gave earlier about the, the attorney from down south who was calling me honey, I don't think he meant anything by that. I think, you know, we all have these different backgrounds and experiences, and even though it might not be something I can relate to, he didn't mean to do anything. So my point simply being, I think it's important not to jump to conclusions mm-hmm <affirmative>. And to be calm and professional when you wanna raise things, but don't assume that it's coming from a bad place and try to reframe it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And educate. Okay. And I really believe that,

Kami Brauer (21:08):
And Marie, you jump in a

Ann-Marie Ahern (21:09):
Lot of the work that I do with clients, often I'm advising clients and high level executive behind the scenes. And, you know, there's this reluctance to bring a concern forward because of fear of retaliation. People are, are torn between how do I preserve my self respect, also advance the cause of women, and also protect my career, protect my advancement, protect my trajectory that I've worked so hard to get to. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I always say, don't worry. We can do this in a way that is befitting your position. Right. Your role and your career goals. And I think that that's, you know, and it, I think that we, is it upstanders and we've, we've learned that you have to stand up for yourself. And I think that people are sometimes laboring under the false impression that what that means is that you have to go to HR and say, I'm being discriminated against that it's because of my sex. And there's a lot of ways that you can get that same message across, many of which have been illustrated by Kelly mm-hmm <affirmative>. That are, that are just as effective and aren't putting you in that position where you are putting yourself at at risk. Right.

Kami Brauer (22:19):
It's just a lot of things. To Kelly's point, you know, again, I always say I never blame a woman for how she reacts to a situation. And when you're Ann-Marie, the things you have to juggle and think about in the moment, like, my client, how's this gonna affect my client? How's it gonna affect me? You know, it's, it's a lot to think about. And if you, again, if you can't do it in the moment, you can do it at a later time. Something that befits the situation. Yeah.

Kelley Barnett (22:41):
And again, you have to do it in a way that works for you. I mean, I mean, we could be facing the very same situation and you might approach it differently.

Kami Brauer (22:49):
Right. I had a situation where someone, I was on a court call and someone said, and it's something inappropriate. And I said, counsel, you either refer to me as, you know, Ms. Ms. Brower or counselor do not call me by that name. And people are like, I can't believe you thought to do that. And I said, I couldn't believe I had thought to do that either, <laugh>, but, you know, I don't know. I just did it.

Ann-Marie Ahern (23:07):
There's one other piece of advice that I wanted to share, but very common microaggression. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And that is that the being interrupted mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, you know, I remember Judge Janet Burnside once said that the way that she handled that, and I saw it over and over again, is that she said, I'll finish my sentence, thank you. And just kept going. And I have used that throughout my career, and I love that piece of advice. Yes. Because it's very direct. It's not rude, but it's basically just saying, I'll not be interrupted and I'm gonna continue.

Kelley Barnett (23:41):
I have another suggestion too. And I like that. Yes, go ahead. And I I was assigned to her room for several months, so I, I can definitely recall times when she said that something that I've used a lot, and I report to a New York executive team. So like, interrupting is their thing. No offense to New Yorkers <laugh>. You know, I will often say, you know, bill, I wanna hear what you have to say, but I, I'm gonna finish my thought. So you're inviting them into the conversation, but you're, you're saying just hold on and then you can talk.

Bethany Studenic (24:12):
I just add too, I mean, when we were talking before we started, Kelly, you made a, I think a good point mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we've kind of covered it, is that I think a lot of women feel guilty whenever we don't maybe say something, or we feel like mm-hmm <affirmative>. We have to stand up for every single thing that that happens. And you were talking about, you know, kind of liberating us from that idea that it's okay if this isn't something that you want to address right now, that's also a valid choice. So Exactly. Having the tips for how to do it, I think are so, so helpful. But also, don't beat yourself up if this isn't a battle that you wanna fight. Especially 'cause microaggressions are so prevalent, we're dealing with them every single day that we're interacting with folks. And so, you know, if you're feeling like something is, you know, I just can't handle that today, or I can't address it, and then you walk away and you're starting to feel guilt. Don't feel guilt. You don't have to address every single thing that's lobbed at you. And I think that's very, very good advice.

Kami Brauer (25:01):
And I wanna also move to, and Kelly, you sort of touched on this, like what allies can do when they see, you know, a woman being interrupted or called an inappropriate name. Like in my situation, I would've liked the staff attorney to have said something to counsel mm-hmm <affirmative>. But he did not. Maybe that person had reasons of their own why they wouldn't do that. But what, what do you think about that?

Kelley Barnett (25:24):
Well, first let me say what's not helpful Yeah. In my opinion is not doing or saying anything, but then coming to my office or calling me later and saying, are you okay? That wasn't right, what happened? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Now, some people might say, I don't want somebody defending me. I can, I can speak up for myself mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I've had it happen many occasions where someone's called me and said, are you okay? You know, and they, and they literally said nothing. What I think would be helpful, and I'll use the example of interruptions, for example, and I've done this many times for, for men and women, by the way, is say, Hey, you know, bill and anyone named Bill,

Kami Brauer (26:04):
Bill, bad guy,

Kelley Barnett (26:05):
Don't get offended. Okay. I'm just kicking that know character. My stepdad's name is Bill. So just the first name that pops in my head, Hey, bill or Susie, I think she's making a great point. I, I'd like to hear her finish it. Mm-Hmm. And then let's hear your thoughts. I think there are ways you can do it without saying, stop interrupting her. Mm-Hmm. Stop interrupting him. I don't think people are gonna get defensive if they feel attacked, even if you're not attacking them. Mm-Hmm. Okay. And so I think there's a bit of psychology, to your point, involved in how you approach situations as an ally, as well as being the person who's the subject of, you know, a moment but not doing anything is okay. But I I, I don't come to my office afterwards and mm-hmm <affirmative>. And offer me support. I mean, that's how I, that's that's my feeling again. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. That's how I feel about it when those things happen to me. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And again, every ally has a different approach and a way of handling it, but I think when it's something that's objectively terrible, Melaniwhen I'm the ally in the room, I feel like I have a responsibility to say something in the moment, in the moment, not later. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Not 10 minutes later, but right then and there. Yeah. Because

Bethany Studenic (27:17):
That after conversation feels like, so you did see it <laugh> Yeah. Right. And you elected to do nothing and that's

Kelley Barnett (27:23):
Frustrating. Yeah. And again, it, it depends on it, it depends, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. But and I also, it depends on how I know the people in the room. Sure.

Bethany Studenic (27:33):
Context,

Kelley Barnett (27:33):
You know, someone, if someone's an ally to something that's being said to me, they know just, I'm good. I'm gonna handle this. But again, if it's something objectively terrible, it's really hard for me to understand. Not always, sometimes why some people don't speak up. If it's a junior attorney or something in the room, I absolutely get it. But leaders in the room can't just sit there, in my opinion. Okay.

Kami Brauer (27:59):
What do you think, Anne-Marie?

Ann-Marie Ahern (28:01):
I think that sometimes it's easier to be an advocate on behalf of others than others

Kami Brauer (28:04):
Yourself. So just thinking. Yep.

Ann-Marie Ahern (28:05):
And so, like, I don't find this a difficult space to navigate. Right. I do think to Kelly's point that, and maybe it shouldn't be this way, but I think giving people the opportunity to save face, even if they perhaps don't deserve that opportunity, is important to move the needle and to affect change. Because if you down dress a person in the moment, or in front of colleagues, or, you know, call them out in a way that's direct and embarrassing, that is not going to, that's not likely to improve behavior in the future. And a lot of times, I think with some of these things, it's that people simply haven't considered it mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if you ask them to think about it differently in a way that is collegial, in a way that is direct, but also advocating for what, you know, to be a behavior that that should exist in the workplace, I think you're much more likely to have a good result. And you're not putting that person on whose behalf you're advocating in a difficult spot. Yeah.

Kami Brauer (29:06):
That's a good point. Alright. I wanna shift now the conversation to family and caregiving. And I wanna go back to you, Anne-Marie. And talk about kind of your story about being a mother and joining your McCarthy Levit and what that experience was like for

Ann-Marie Ahern (29:20):
You. This is one of my favorite, favorite things to talk about because I I had my first baby at age 33 after having worked a lot of very long, very hard hours. I went back to work after eight weeks. And my mentor, who was a wonderful trial lawyer and a great sponsor of mine, Ellen Simon, suddenly it was just her and I. And so I have this baby, and she said, don't worry, we're gonna do this together. And then she had the opportunity to run for Congress in Arizona. And so it was really just me, <laugh>. And so my, my whole first year of practice, I was very conflicted between wanting to spend time with this baby that I had waited a really long time for, and and, and the work that I knew needed to be done. And so at the end of her first year, I was so exhausted.

Ann-Marie Ahern (30:12):
I said, I am going to be a government lawyer. I, I, I don't wanna do this anymore. And at the same time, we were in conversation with McCarthy Lut about joining, and I had an offer from the Office for Civil Rights, for the US Department of Education at a significant pay cut and an offer from McCarthy LUT to come over as an associate. And I thought, well, now is the time to define the life that you want. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And so I said, and they didn't know me at all. I, they weren't, they weren't entering into this transaction to Getty and Maria Hearn <laugh>. So I said, listen, I I will only come if I can work four days a week. And the managing partner at the time, who's been a great sponsor and friend of mine, said, well, we've, we've never had a part-time lawyer, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't.

Ann-Marie Ahern (30:55):
And so we'll give that a try. And so I did not work on Fridays. I mean, when we say did not work, <laugh>, we all know what that means. I didn't come into the office on Fridays. I, I still rarely come into the office on Fridays. I was able to be in the cafeteria every Friday for six years with my kids. I was, had that one day with them that was sacrosanct. That let me feel like I was doing a good job at being a mother and a good job at being a lawyer. And it meant so much for me to be able to design my schedule that way. My clients never knew. But I had that support. And, you know, at some point, you know, I was made a partner and then an equity partner on that schedule. At some point when I was still an associate though, Ken Lman who gave me this opportunity, said, you know, you, you get as much done in four days as everybody else does.

Ann-Marie Ahern (31:48):
So I don't know why we're paying you at 80%. And I said, yeah, that's a great point. And I, I would not have thought to ask for that myself, but he, he initiated that, that change in compensation and supported me all the way through, as, you know, a mother and a lawyer. And I think that like when, and my youngest daughter wants to be a lawyer, and so that says to me that she doesn't feel like I've screwed her up too much <laugh>. But it's, you know, that having that, that balance of being able to have success as a mother and success in my career is something that I have will be eternally grateful for. And it started with making that ask for the four day work week. Interesting.

Kami Brauer (32:27):
We got this comment or feedback from our last survey about single mothers and what they can do. I mean, I was not a single mother. I was, had my own law firm. I didn't have any, you know, help at the law firm. I said, well, I need help somewhere. So we had, I was fortunate enough that I could get a nanny to help with the child rearing because it was just me, myself, and I at my firm. But for single moms who don't, can't afford a nanny or try and navigate their legal careers and raise, raise a child, I wanna ask the whole panel kind of what your advice or, or tips would be for, for that single mother. I think one of which is like Anne-Marie having a, a conversation about what you need, you know, at your law firm. And actually we'll start with you.

Ann-Marie Ahern (33:08):
I think it's really important as we're looking at women you know, to really remember that we are not a monolith. And so one working mother's objectives may be different than another's. One single mother's objectives may be different than another. You know, we have a wonderful lawyer at our firm who was a single mother, and she, it was very important to her to have an unlimited ability to earn as much as she could as a single mother, and to control her financial situation and to have a formula that incentivized her to to, to do well. That was what was important to her at the time that she joined us. Another single mother may need flexibility in her schedule. She may need, you know, the ability to come in after the child's on the bus. She may need the ability to maybe work a reduced work schedule.

Ann-Marie Ahern (34:03):
So I think that it's really important to, and this is something I feel very, very strongly about as it relates to child rearing responsibilities, to meet the lawyer where they are. Because when you look at the data of women who persist to the highest levels of management and partnership in law firms, it tra, I mean, we, we represent 50% of the law school graduates in less than 20% of, of the partnership. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So what happens between graduation and those opportunities where you have your highest earning potential is that it's really hard to have little kids and to be to be a lawyer, especially in some areas of practice. And so how do we have open conversations about to what can we do to help you as a female lawyer create the life, the schedule that you are able to manage so that you can get through to the other side and, and persist in the practice of law. Okay.

Kami Brauer (35:01):
Kelly, what do you think?

Kelley Barnett (35:02):
I'm not a single mom, but I, I think for any parent or caregiver, right, it's important to set and communicate boundaries early and often. So I'll end this point in a minute about saying, I don't do that very well. <Laugh> Okay. <Laugh>. But I, I just think as tempting as it is, especially as a younger lawyer or just a lawyer, because we're always, you know, with, with all the devices these days, there's just no end to the communication. But it's as tempting as it may be, for example, to respond to emails as you're sitting down for dinner. Don't do it when you start. If you start doing it, it's hard to unwind that expectation that, oh, if I email Kelly at eight o'clock at night, she's gonna respond. So I think it's important to set boundaries early and often if someone asks you to be on a call when you're normally with your child at an event, sports event, dinner, say, I'm not available at that time.

Kelley Barnett (36:03):
I don't even think you need to say, it's my family time. I'm not available, but here's what I am available. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I just think, again, finding the boundaries that are right for you and communicating those from the outset will help. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Now, I am not a big believer in balance <laugh> for me, I agree. Okay. It's striking the right level of imbalance that works for me and my family. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And that shifts as you go through the different stages in your career, but you gotta find what works for you and you've gotta communicate it from the beginning. Yeah. I mean, the types of conversations that we've been talking about today if you choose to have them, they're never going to be comfortable. You might be used to having them, unfortunately, but no one's ever like, yeah, I get to say this, or I get to have this conversation.

Kelley Barnett (36:59):
Right. So my point simply is it's okay to be nervous, it's okay to be afraid, and it's normal to have those feelings mm-hmm <affirmative>. But try not to let that be the reason that you don't speak to let that be the only reason that you don't act or speak up. And by the way, how you choose to act or speak up. And again, if you choose, it doesn't need to be some grand gesture. You don't have to give a speech or send an email bla, you know mm-hmm <affirmative>. It can be a gesture that's consistent with your personality and how you would normally address situations. But don't not do it only because you're afraid. Okay. Think, you know, there might be other reasons you don't do it, but don't let the discomfort of doing it be the only reason you don't have the conversation, because it's, because then you'll never have it.

Kami Brauer (37:51):
Right. Right. All right. Looking at the time, I wanna jump to next about talking about what firms and companies can do to retain women. Annmarie had brought to our attention a survey from the a BA, it was from 2019. It's called Walking Out the Door, the Facts, figures, and Future of Experienced Women Lawyers in Private Practice. I do wanna give a shameless plug to the OWBA annual conference. The woman who wrote the foreword <laugh> to this survey, Hillary Bass, who's the former A BA President will be our keynote speaker for our annual conference held May 8th through ninth in Columbus. Alright. Done with my blog. But what does that survey talk about in terms of what firms and companies can do to retain women? You know,

Kelley Barnett (38:33):
The, the

Ann-Marie Ahern (38:34):
Data that it presents is, is very, is very difficult to accept. You know, that 20%, and if you look at like the Crane's book of lists in Cleveland, you know, 20% of all partners in law firms in Cleveland and nationwide are female. And in Cleveland, it's actually much worse than that. 20% was like the high watermark. When I saw those figures reported, I thought, this is crazy, because law firms for at least the last 20 years have had women's committees. There has been an intentional effort to hire, recruit, train, retain women. Most law firms have been very mindful of the goal of diversity. And, you know, this is, and nonetheless, the progress is not there. So I think that, you know, having a very strong mentorship program within your firm, having flexible work schedules, having a compensation system that is open and transparent, these are all things that, you know, that, that help move the needle.

Ann-Marie Ahern (39:36):
But really creating that that community where women feel supported, where, where you don't ever feel alone, where women are in leadership positions. And so there's there's representation and women, young women lawyers see senior lawyers in the firm who have succeeded, who have, you know, succeeded financially and otherwise. Those are all things that will help keep women persisting in the practice of law. And to also understand that there's going to be, and I think that it has to be recognized that it, if, if you are a woman who has children, there is going to be a difficult period of your career where you, you know, are torn in so many directions every single day that it is difficult on the best day to do a good job at all of it, but that it gets easier. And I think just having women who have been down that path and have, have can see the other side as a, you know, someone who sees being an empty nester on the horizon. I think that it's really important for people to understand, like, you can do this and it's all gonna be okay, and you're, you are doing a better job than you think at all of it.

Bethany Studenic (40:52):
Yeah. I would just add, you know, what I like about your point is that you're talking about what employers can do. And to a certain extent, I think, you know, conversations about, you know, having space for women is so important. So we're able to talk about and think about these tips and best practices mm-hmm <affirmative>. And at the same time, we can't lose sight of the conversation that in order to do something differently, we have to do something different. Right. So systems have to change to some extent. And so you're talking about flexible work arrangements, you're talking about making sure that there's pay equity in the compensation scales. You're making sure that there's mentorship opportunities and promotion opportunities. And I think paying attention to the microaggressions that we're talking about today, this entire list of the things that women are still going through, all of those little choices add up to the inequalities that we're seeing at the partnership level. Right. The reason women aren't making partner is not because they don't do great work, it's because they're seen differently. They're torn down through the process, they're blocked from opportunity. And so making sure that we are looking at the systems and making those adjustments is imperative because we're not gonna see change until we make a change.

Kami Brauer (41:58):
Kelly.

Kelley Barnett (41:58):
Totally agree. Okay. Now let me start by saying, I do think most firms and organizations are trying. Yes. Okay. I do believe they're trying. I was fortunate to work at a firm for 12 years that had flexible work arrangements long before Covid. And that's just one example. I'm fortunate enough now to work at AmTrust where I've been for the last six years, where they have several internal leadership programs that women participate in at multiple levels. And our executive committee is involved, our executive committee and other leaders in the company, including me, are involved in formal mentoring programs at Renew every year. And I think mentoring is so key. Obviously family friendly policies mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, that, that's a given to me. Those should be everywhere. And not just for, for all parents. Right, okay. But I think mentoring is key. I've had so many great mentors over my career, but I think feeling, being able to have conversations with other women in particular that have been successful is just, it, it normalizes what you're feeling. And I just think it's really important for those opportunities to be present at firms and for in-house counsel.

Kami Brauer (43:16):
Yeah. And that's, I I kind of wanna wrap up then our conversation. Talk about talking about mentoring, because that is one of the things in Bethany's survey that women want. And so I will again, start with you Kelly. What kind of advice would you give for either being a mentor or mentee or how to navigate that relationship if you want such a relationship?

Kelley Barnett (43:35):
Yeah, so I, I think one misconception about the mentor mentee relationship is that, you know, it's on the mentor to do all the work and it's a two-way street. Yeah. And if anything, you know, you as the mentee are the one doing the work. So, you know, obviously you need to identify a mentor, someone that you admire, ideally in your profession, in your practice area. But I think once you have that mentoring relationship, you have gotta figure out what you want from it. You've gotta set clear goals and expectations. You've gotta communicate those. You've got to show up. Yes.

Kami Brauer (44:12):
I was just get what I say a priority and show up. Yeah.

Kelley Barnett (44:15):
Someone who's been a mentor. Yeah. And I love mentoring. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Okay. It's, it's very life giving to me. Bucket filling for me. But nothing's more frustrating than, you know, we're all busy. Okay. I jumped off a plane and, and rolled into my house at nine o'clock last night and I had a mentoring call at eight 15 this morning, you know, doing this. And five minutes before the call I got a email, sorry, I can't make it because I'm busy. Be respectful of the effort that your mentor is putting into it, because most really good, I think good mentors take it seriously. And so it's a relationship that needs to be nurtured, but I think it's so important. Okay. And I've, like I said, I've been blessed to have a lot of great mentors over my career.

Kami Brauer (44:58):
Ann Marie, what's your advice about that type of relationship?

Ann-Marie Ahern (45:00):
I, too have been blessed with the critical mentors at every juncture of my career who have been instrumental to my success. But I would say that for me, each of those, those relationships was not a formal mentorship. Right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I think that the, the me remember, a mentor mentee relationship doesn't have to have that label mm-hmm <affirmative>. In order for it to be really effective. And I would like to think to some degree, I've mentored, you know, many, many of the, the lawyers and law students that I've interacted with over the years. And, but I think that, you know, sometimes I, I would resist the label because just being available to that person to support their career to, to know that the door's always open to, to serve as an example of, you know, how to navigate a law firm environment or, or the legal system. Those are all ways that you can mentor informally that I think sometimes are a little more authentic than when you like, pair two people together and say, you shall mentor and you shall be mentored. Yeah. <laugh>,

Kelley Barnett (46:03):
<Laugh> can I build, I'd like to build on that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, that's a great point. And I think, you know, anyone listening, you can be a mentor right now just by paying attention. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So when you see another woman lawyer, for example, if you observe that she's having a moment or you know that she's having a moment reach out to her mm-hmm <affirmative>. How you doing? Do you wanna talk? And she might say no, and that's okay. But sometimes just that small gesture of reaching out or offering advice or when she asks you to go to lunch, going to lunch, or when you say you're gonna show up for her event, showing up for her event, sometimes those small gestures can go a long way too.

Kami Brauer (46:43):
Right, right. And I think with like formal mentorship programs where you get kind of like, you're gonna be the mentor, you're gonna be a mentee. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I think those are fine, especially if people who are kind of maybe shy about Yeah. That type of thing. But you know, if it doesn't work, don't, don't think, oh, this is never gonna work. Like, don't be shy about going back, asking for a different mentor or mentee in addition to creating those, those relationships organically. Bethany, what's your thoughts? Yeah.

Bethany Studenic (47:09):
My best mentors have not been through a formal program. Right. And I feel like when I started my career, you know, you're told you need to find a mentor and I'm kind of walking around are, are you my mentor?

Kelley Barnett (47:19):
Are you my mother? Are you <laugh>?

Bethany Studenic (47:22):
And you know, you kind of learn that mentorship can be very small things and it can be more long term relationships. And I've had so many different types of mentors over my career. And I also think a good mentor is also gonna go to bat for you. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You're gonna speak their ni your name in spaces that maybe you're not in. They're gonna promote you as someone to look at. And so there have been so many great mentors, both men and women. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So many women have been amazing mentors. I'm not sure I'd even be practicing in law if it wasn't for my partner, Claire Wade. I remember having lunch with her and saying, I always thought I was never gonna really practice law. I was doing this because I wanted to learn policy, but I think I might wanna step into this space.

Bethany Studenic (48:04):
And she just brought me in with every, she just handed everything to me and she always shows up and I ask the silliest questions. I'm like, am I supposed to be asked? I feel like I should know this. She repeats information. She's been an incredibly patient mentor with me. And so, you know, I think, and we didn't meet through a program Right. We met out here in the community and she's been an incredible support for me. So again, I think it's, the label can be a little cumbersome. Mm-Hmm. But you can find mentorship in so many different ways. Yeah.

Kami Brauer (48:32):
And also you have different mentors for different areas of your life. Absolutely. You know what I mean? You could have someone more for the business side or if you're experiencing these, you know, macroaggressions, <laugh>, I'll use that term, <laugh> you know another mentor that you feel more comfortable talking about those issues. Absolutely. Issues with Kelly, were you gonna say something? No, I was

Kelley Barnett (48:52):
Just gonna say, and it could be, you know, I I, I said earlier, ideally someone in the, in your practice area. Right. But I mean, when I think about, you know, if you were to ask, ask me name a, a mentor, the first one that comes to mind, and this sounds cliche, is my mom not a lawyer. She was a court reporter, did not want me to go to law school. So that's exactly what I did. <Laugh>, the reason I, she's still a guidepost for me today is because she had a growth mindset and she taught me that view roadblocks, which is what we've been discussing today as opportunities, as challenges. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I was, I don't know, 10 years old, excuse me, on my elbows, propped up watching some ice skater do like a triple pirouette. And I said, oh, I'll never be able to do that. And she came and like yanked me up and said, don't ever say that you can do anything you want if you're willing to work hard enough and if you want it. I think about that every day. You know, gosh, every morning I'm like, oh, I have to deal with this today. How am I gonna do it? And I just think about that this is an opportunity. Right.

Kami Brauer (49:53):
Right. Alright. I want to thank all our panelists for your discussion and your insights and, and sharing your experiences. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Kelley Barnett (50:02):
Thanks. Thank you. Great job.

Melanie Farrell (50:07):
Thank you for listening. We want to hear your bar story on this podcast. Visit sealy metro bar.org/podcasts and we'll do the rest. See you soon with another edition of my.