My BarStory S02E16 - Stacey Ganor and Heather Zirke

“I was actually thinking, I don’t think it matters if I’m alive.” Those were the thoughts that led CMBA member Stacey Ganor to finally face her mental health challenges and get real help. Along the way, she inspired her friend and CMBA member Heather Zirke on her own quest for a happier life. This week’s My BarStory podcast episode features these two lawyers and friends sharing their personal stories in the hope that listeners will understand that they are not alone. As our Bar theme this year illustrates, we are truly In It Together!

Transcript

Kari Burns (00:05):
Hi, I'm Kari Burns, chief Strategy Officer of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. This year, our theme is in it together, focusing on mental health for attorneys. Join us as we dive into inspiring stories, challenges, and triumphs, highlighting the importance of wellbeing in the legal profession. Here's another bar story, and remember, we're all in it together.

Heather Zirke (00:29):
Well, hi, Stacey

Stacey Ganor (00:31):
<Laugh>. Hello, Heather.

Heather Zirke (00:33):
I am glad to be with you this morning. Why don't you introduce yourself?

Stacey Ganor (00:38):
Sure. Thank you. So I am Stacy Gainor. I am an attorney of about 25 years or so. I have a practice on the west side. We do estate planning with a focus on long-term care planning to help families when someone's going into nursing home assisted living. I'm happy to be here today to tackle the topic of mental health care and the legal profession.

Heather Zirke (01:05):
I'm Heather Zuke. I was with the CMBA for a long time, and I am now with the University of Akron School of Law. I am the director of the Miller Becker Center for Professional Responsibility. And I'm also one of your clients, right? Stacy

Stacey Ganor (01:24):
<Laugh>. That is correct. That is correct, <laugh>. Yeah,

Heather Zirke (01:27):
I know firsthand. You're really good lawyer.

Stacey Ganor (01:30):
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Heather Zirke (01:32):
So, Stacy, do you remember when you and I first became friends?

Stacey Ganor (01:36):
Well, I do. So I originally met you, but very, very briefly when you were assistant or associate bar council here, when the two bars had just merged. And I had been on the grievance committee of the Cuyahoga County Bar Association. So that was very brief, but then fast forward about 10 years, and I saw you in the Aruba Airport and I happened to have a pretty good sense of you know, names and faces and put together that you were Heather Zuke, and then I saw your bag with the monogram of HZ. And I thought, well, okay, there it is. So reintroduced myself to you and a few weeks later you reached out to see how you could get me a little bit more active in the bar. And the rest is history, as they say. So we started meeting for the listeners. Heather and I started meeting about every six months, just put it on the calendar and really developed a, a friendship through the, through, through those meetings.

Heather Zirke (02:37):
Yeah. And I have really enjoyed our friendship. Would you say it's been seven years or something? Six or seven years.

Stacey Ganor (02:46):
I mean, yeah, I guess if it was 2018, that doesn't really seem possible. Yeah. And yet there it is math. Yeah. Right. <Laugh>. So, yeah.

Heather Zirke (02:57):
So, so yeah. So we have been meeting together really faithfully about every six months from them from then. And I remember too, meeting in the airport, it, it was so cool of you to come over and say hello and, and I do remember sending you a note afterwards just to say, Hey, it was nice meeting you in Aruba and I was really glad that you took me up on the offer to meet for coffee or breakfast or something. And, and so we figured out that we have some, we have some things in common. We both have two children. Yep. I've been married for about, for 21 years. How many years have you been married?

Stacey Ganor (03:37):
27.

Heather Zirke (03:38):
Okay.

Stacey Ganor (03:39):
Yeah. Long time. A

Heather Zirke (03:40):
Bit longer than me. So we talk a lot when we get together, we talk about our kids. And you have twin sons, correct. Very accomplished sons. And I have two children. I have a son and a daughter. And so we've talked about raising teenagers and being wives and being lawyers and and I've enjoyed our Right. Our conversations over the years. Your boys are a little bit older than my kids, and so I feel like I'm just a little bit behind you. So when we get together, I get a preview into what's coming up next for

Stacey Ganor (04:19):
Me. Exactly. The benefit of experience, right?

Heather Zirke (04:21):
Yes. Right. So your, your boys are in college. They're college

Stacey Ganor (04:25):
Age and 20 years old.

Heather Zirke (04:26):
Yes. And so I have a senior in high school, and so we're just, we're getting into this the college time, so,

Stacey Ganor (04:33):
Which I wouldn't wish on anyone <laugh> having gone through it, but you'll get through it Yeah. As we all

Heather Zirke (04:39):
Do. Well, and I've been, I've been encouraged by you in, in lots of ways. So I'm, I'm remembering one of the times that you and I got together, maybe it was maybe two or three years into our friendship. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and we take turns, right? So I meet you and Rocky River sometimes and you come to Berea Right. To meet me. And so it was one of the times when you came to Berea and I only remember it was cold outside. Yeah.

Stacey Ganor (05:09):
You

Heather Zirke (05:10):
Had a fantastic scarf on. And you, you make hats, right? I do. I

Stacey Ganor (05:14):
Remember <laugh>. Yes.

Heather Zirke (05:15):
And he had a really cool hat. So that, that's all I remember though, is that it was cold outside and you seemed really down and you know, we only see each other every six months. Right. And so I didn't know if Stacey was just having a bad day or if something was going on. And I don't remember what we talked about specifically, but our conversation was just really heavy. Right. And if you remember that time, how would you say you were feeling around then?

Stacey Ganor (05:47):
So, I, I can't say I remember the specifics of that conversation. I do remember being there and, you know, the, I, I can imagine what we talked about just based on history. Bird's eye view of my history is that I've had a lifetime of depression. And, you know, sometimes it's better and sometimes it's worse for many, many years. Just completely untreated, unacknowledged. It was a good Irish Catholic family growing up. So, you know, we don't really talk about those things, but into my adulthood, occasionally had sought help, occasionally had been medicated, but it was inconsistent. And I, I think that when we met this that, you know, few years ago, things had really sort of spiraled down for me. You know, we're lawyers, right? So we can intellectualize things. Yeah. And, you know, maybe we're having some sort of an issue and we can think out really well what's going on?

Stacey Ganor (06:44):
But, you know, taking steps to actually do something about it might be another story. But it was a point in time where I, I actually was thinking about, I don't think it matters if I'm alive. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and so in my lawyer brain, I was like, okay, that's, that's a worsening of your condition. Yeah. You, you need to go get some help. And I, and I think it was about that time, I, it took time. It, it still took probably several to many months after that until I actually found or not found, but took the steps to find a therapist to start talking to, which I did. And it turned out she was the exact right person at the exact right time. I, I think you saw me right as I was beginning that process. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> of of really talking to somebody either right before or right. As

Heather Zirke (07:42):
Okay. And I, so I remember about, I mean, six months later we're so faithful every six months we get together <laugh>. Yes. And I remember before we met again six months later, and I'm thinking, I wonder how Stacey's gonna be like if, if you're still gonna be really down, if our conversation is gonna be really heavy or if you'll be better. And so, so we got together again this time in Rocky River and you physically, you looked different. You looked lighter and, and just seemed better. And I remember in the course of our conversation, you shared that you, that you were getting counseling. And, and I thought that was really interesting. I had been thinking about getting counseling, but just like you said, I was able to talk myself out of it right after working in, in attorney discipline for a long time and, and seeing lawyers who have had some really serious losses that they have faced serious addiction. You know, and I've seen some amazing comeback stories too. And, and I just thought, I don't, I just don't need help. That just isn't for me. But now you're telling me that you had, you'd been talking to a counselor and I remember what you said to me, do maybe you don't remember.

Stacey Ganor (09:05):
No, I do. I do. You go right ahead. You said therapy

Heather Zirke (09:08):
Was fantastic. <Laugh>. And I thought, well, I would like to feel fantastic

Stacey Ganor (09:15):
<Laugh>,

Heather Zirke (09:16):
But I didn't do anything after, after that meeting, I was happy for you, but I was still thinking I'm probably okay. But around this time, I had gone into private practice and I was enjoying doing my own thing, but I also found it isolating. I was at home Yeah. By myself a lot. And I was also more involved with my kids and their issues more than I ever had been before. Right. And so the weight of motherhood was sort of weighing on me more than, than it ever had. And so we got together again six months later, and you're continuing to be great as far as I can tell. And I felt like I wasn't better. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I was probably feeling worse. Yeah. I, and now I know that I was experiencing symptoms of depression and I asked you who your therapist was. Right. And if, if maybe she would see me. And thankfully you did share her information with me. And within a month or so, I started seeing your therapist.

Stacey Ganor (10:28):
Yes. <laugh>. Yeah.

Heather Zirke (10:30):
So now we also have that in common. Right. We even, we share a therapist and just like you, I think she was a really good fit for me too. Yeah. Right. And so, I mean, everybody has to find that right fit. So I know how, how it was for me. But, you know, when you started that process of talking with a, a counselor, you know, was that easy or did, was it a little bit of an adjustment?

Stacey Ganor (10:58):
God, no. I mean, you know, I was in at such a low point, really the lowest point I had ever been in my life when I started talking to, I'll just use her first name, Amy. But if anyone wants a referral, she's fantastic. So you should email me <laugh>. I, so I was really, really at that, you know, the proverbial rock bottom, and I went at it with everything I had. I is the truth. I figured, okay, I'm going, I am going to do exactly what she tells me to do. I don't care how it sounds. I don't care if it seems cheesy or corny or, or whatever. I'm just, I'm going after it because I can't live like this anymore. And I, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted by the downward spirals. Sometimes I would say like, oh, I wish I was bipolar. At least I would get like an upswing.

Stacey Ganor (11:49):
Which I know that that's false thinking. So point being, I, I really went at it with everything I had. And I think going at it with an open mind really made a huge difference. I, I think, you know, people can go and talk out their issues or problems with a counselor and it can be very beneficial, but there may you, you may be keeping it a little bit at arm's length. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> even then in that context, I just decided I wasn't gonna do that. And it was deep and it was hard. Yeah. And it was tearful. It is not easy. But what happened, and I think because I was so diligent about doing the exercises that Amy had me doing, it's why you saw a difference in six months. Right. I mean, therapy's not something, or counseling is not something that you necessarily do, and then you're cured and you're better.

Stacey Ganor (12:46):
Right. It was a truly thinking back, I mean, it really was a transformation for me that you were not the only person to notice. Like, you're in a good mood. What's wrong? <Laugh>, you know you're particularly cheerful. I mean, you know, and that's not my normal demeanor. I it never has been. Again, you know, Amy was the right person at the right time for me. But I suppose what I would like people to know is that that was good luck. Now I had had bad luck with counselors in the past and looking back, I mean, they were really bad. Really bad. Oh, wow. And, you know, but I didn't have the experience to know that either as a younger person or even as a somewhat older person, it is a subjective thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, if you have a, a good feeling about the person that you're talking to, and if you don't, while it's so frustrating because now you have to find somebody else. Yeah. It is really well worth the effort to do that. So if there's a takeaway you know, for anyone in the audience, that's it. Yeah. That it's a very individual thing. And you know, I, I feel like I put in my time where I had bad therapists that I deserved Amy <laugh> once I found her. And but don't, don't hesitate to, to try to find somebody different if you're not connecting. Yeah.

Heather Zirke (14:15):
Well that's really good advice. And that makes me feel really fortunate that I didn't have to go through it more than once. Because Amy really is a fantastic person. Right. And it sounds like my, my experience was similar to yours when I, when I started seeing her, I was going weekly, the way that you describe it, holding it at arms length. Mm. The process. I think I probably did that too. And I don't know that I went into it with, with the open mind that you did. I can think of some things she, she suggested to me that I sort of pushed back on. I thought, this is, I can't do this. This is just weird. But when I gave it a try, it really has made a difference. There were, for the first several weeks, I could not get through a session without crying.

Heather Zirke (15:08):
And that drove me a little bit crazy. Sure. I thought, you know, why can't I just feel better immediately? I, it, it was very frustrating. I remember that something really good happened for me, really good in my life, really positive. And I went in to see Amy shortly after that and I was still crying and still upset. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I, and I remember thinking and saying this, just, this still isn't right. And it was at that point that I decided I'm gonna try some medication. Okay. I had been very anti-medicine. Right. I thought, I don't need this. I will eventually be able to sort of pull myself up by my bootstraps and this will all be fine. I was also worried about becoming too dependent on medication, but that also was a game changer for me. Yeah. And it has made the work of therapy so much easier.

Heather Zirke (16:11):
I've learned through the process. So you have talked about having lifelong depression. I've learned that I had and continue to have anxiety, just significant anxiety. Right. That I have always had when I was a kid, I would've described myself as a worrier, just big time worrier. Right. and at different points in my life had obsessive compulsive disorder. I struggle with perfectionism. I think a lot of lawyers do. Yes. I think so. Yeah. And imposter syndrome. Oh, yes. Yes. I mean all, all the things. And I just, so there was just this weight always that I felt like was just part of me. That's just how I'm hardwired. Sure. And I didn't believe, I don't know that I really believed that counseling could help. I didn't believe that medication would really help with that because of that is just Heather. And it, it just made a huge difference.

Heather Zirke (17:07):
And I remember walking my dogs one day and thinking, 'cause there's just always this nagging worry, whatever it is. It's like my mind would just clinging to some worry and I'm walking the dogs and thinking that's gone. It's wow. Like the cloud is just gone and I just feel different. And so it's, it's been amazing. And so now I, I meet with Amy about every, you know, every three to four weeks. Okay. and, you know, and so, and I'm not sort of crying and melting all over myself anymore, <laugh>. We just, we have good conversations and there are things that I continue to work through, but I just, I feel so much better. So much better.

Stacey Ganor (17:57):
Yeah. Obviously we've talked about this between ourselves, but I'll, I'll say it again. It's so meaningful and gratifying to have one befriended you because you're awesome <laugh>. And two, to think that I would've had a positive impact on you, just, just by being open about Yeah. Who you know, my own self. Yeah. and I think that that's, as attorneys professionals, it's not necessarily easy to do that. You know, we're all sort of worried about, I don't know, maintaining that professionalism and that maybe this isn't part of it. And I suppose Sure. It helps. We are having breakfast together. It's not like we are in some legal forum or something. Right. Obviously it matters where you are, you know, it's okay not to be okay. Right. And it's okay to talk to people about that. It means a lot that I would've had a positive impact in that way.

Stacey Ganor (18:54):
One thing that Amy said to me along the way was, you know, it's never too, it's never too late <laugh> to feel better. Right. You know, and I too lived with that. Oh, that's just the way I am. Yeah. It's that dark cloud over my head. Right. And that's, that's always just gonna be there. Yeah. And it turns out that doesn't have to always be there. And, and it's not that it's Oh, a bright and shiny world now. No. All the time. No. It's not that you don't have issues anymore. It's not, and, and medication's not a panacea. You know, I think I also take medications and, and at this point in my life, I feel like I will take them for the rest of my life. Yeah. I'm really not interested in that downward spiral again, you really are never too old to make a change in your life.

Stacey Ganor (19:44):
I mean, there are scientific reasons for that. That is a whole nother conversation about neuroplasticity and all of that stuff. And probably, Heather, you've done research that I've done 'cause we're lawyers and we like to learn about that stuff. But, you know, putting that aside, the fact of the matter is you really can change the way that you react to things in your life. And that is perhaps the only thing we have control of. Other smart people have said that, not me. I believe it was Vitor Frankl, but it turns out that's really true. That is really true. And I certainly didn't ever fully appreciate how true that was until I was in, in this process and actually feeling better. Yeah. About my life, about my place in the world, about everything. Yeah.

Heather Zirke (20:38):
I appreciate you so much for your willingness to have this conversation with me in this forum. Of course. I I don't know that, that either one of us was totally comfortable with it, but I think that we agreed that, that it was something that we could do together. Right. And and I continue to be so thankful for your willingness to share with me because it, it absolutely has had a positive impact on my life and I'm continuing to do better because of your friendship and because of your openness with me. So thank you for that and thanks for, for being so open today with everybody. And, and I wanna thank Amy too.

Stacey Ganor (21:21):
Oh my gosh, Amy, we'll

Heather Zirke (21:22):
Have

Stacey Ganor (21:23):
To share this with Amy,

Heather Zirke (21:24):
How she came here

Stacey Ganor (21:25):
<Laugh>. I was thinking the very same thing. She's gonna have to get that emailed to her <laugh>. Yeah. But you know, you are most welcome and it, it's never too late. Yeah. To turn a new leaf in some way and if you're feeling like, oh, it's just how I am. Yeah. I guess. But it turns out you can change that if you want to. Yeah. And it's hard work, but turns out to be worth it.

Heather Zirke (21:48):
Yeah.

Stacey Ganor (21:49):
In the end. And as

Heather Zirke (21:50):
Lawyers, we don't, we're not afraid of hard work. I mean, we can, we can do this.

Stacey Ganor (21:56):
So, I mean, but I will say I was quite terrified, <laugh> and of this kind of hard work as, as most people are. Yeah. But even more so it turns out to be worth it in the end. It

Heather Zirke (22:09):
Is worth it. The end. Yes. Yeah. Thanks Stacy.

Stacey Ganor (22:13):
Thank you Heather.

Melanie Farrell (22:14):
Thank you for listening. See MBA members. If you want to record your own podcast, it's as simple as visiting c metro bar.org/podcasts. We'll do the rest. See you soon with another my bar story.