My BarStory S02E15 - Karyn Washington and Matt Besser

Karyn Washington is an attorney and active CMBA leader. She also has an extraordinary story to tell about struggle, perseverance and success. Karyn was denied the opportunity to take the Bar exam after spending years learning the law, all while struggling with a debilitating mental illness. She worked for years to heal and recover. Karyn is sharing her story with CMBA President Matt Besser, and with all of us in hopes that those who are suffering will recognize that help is available, and the future can once again be filled with promise.

This episode contains honest discussions of suicide and other trauma. It might not be appropriate for some listeners.

Transcript

Matt Besser (00:06):
This is CNBA President Matt Besser. In this episode of my Bar story, we have a special conversation for you as part of our In It Together theme this year, prioritizing Lawyer mental Health. You are about to hear a member of our bar share her amazing story of perseverance. We wanna let you know that this episode contains discussion of suicide and other serious matters. We share these stories in the hope of helping normalize mental health challenges in our profession, and with the goal of making our profession a healthier one for all.

Karyn Washington (00:37):
Hi everybody. My name is Karyn Washington. It is still very strange for me to hear a member of the bar. You'll hear why a little bit later. I am a primarily domestic relations attorney at, erner and Bolt out in North Royalton. I say primary domestic relations. I also do a juvenile custody, landlord, tenant personal injury. We're a little bit of a general practice. Divorce and custody is, is my little niche. I worked as a solo practitioner, hen I first became a lawyer in December of 2020. I got a nice little mug from the Ohio State Bar after I passed the bar during COVI that literally says I passed the bar during Covid <laugh>. I was a solo transitioning from a paralegal, and when I left that I went to a firm and I've kind of been all over. So, t's been a ride.

Matt Besser (01:28):
We're gonna talk about the, the special joys that come with being a Dr. Practitioner in a little bit. But, but since you alluded to, I think it being strange hearing yourself referred to as a member of, of the bar, maybe maybe fill us in on your journey to, to getting sworn in.

Karyn Washington (01:48):
Okay. Well, as I said, I was sworn in in December, 2020, but I actually graduated law school in 2012. The reason for the gap is that prior to graduating law school, I made a few decisions that kept me from taking the bar. And those decisions, although they delayed me, were necessary, I think, on my path to recovering and treating my mental illness. I have bipolar disorder type one, which I don't know how many people are familiar with bipolar, but bipolar one is classified as having severe manic episodes in addition to depressive episodes. Those symptoms first started when I was probably 16, but I really became aware of the depression when I was about 19, and I went and saw my primary care doctor and he was not qualified, bless his heart to treat mental illnesses. But I was 19, you know, what did I know?

Karyn Washington (03:03):
And he prescribed an antidepressant. And when you have bipolar disorder, when you are prescribed an antidepressant that can actually trigger your mania. So that happened, but of course, I didn't realize it at the time. I got through college. I got into law school spent my first two years in law school out in California and then transferred to Cleveland Marshall. And my first year at Cleveland Marshall was 2010. And at the time I was in the night program, because I have, I had to work, I was working in a law office with my mother who was also an attorney. She was a paralegal at the time. She was the head paralegal at that office. And shortly after I was hired she'd been there maybe five, seven years. She was fired for what I believed and kind of still believe was a, an unjustifiable reason.

Karyn Washington (04:01):
I was very angry on her behalf. And partially, I think because of my illness being untreated, I made the incredibly stupid decision to report her boss, who was an attorney to the disciplinary counsel for a completely unjustifiable reason. It was just as bad as what I believed he had done to my mother for me to do that to him. And I promptly forgot all about it. And then I got a letter back a few months later from disciplinary counsel, not only telling me that my complaint was dismissed, but also chewing me out quite rightly for making that report and for also making comments about him on Facebook, because this was back in the days when we didn't know how to lock down Facebook, and we didn't realize the internet was forever. And that people who aren't necessarily on your friends list can see stuff. And so what did I do in my partially medicated?

Karyn Washington (05:02):
Because I wasn't always great at taking my meds. I was partially medicated mental state. I decided to reply to disciplinary counsel and tell them that I didn't make those comments and they were being lied to, et cetera, et cetera. And I was extremely defensive. And then once again, I promptly forgot all about it. So 2012 I graduate, I applied to take the bar and I did not get my nice little envelope. I got instead a letter from the board of bar examiners asking me to come down for a hearing based on my actions in, in reporting this attorney. Now, back then, in the days of your, when you applied to take the bar, you had to report specific mental illnesses if you had them, along with things that I do not believe are necessarily mental illnesses or at least should not be classified with other mental illnesses. Those specific things were bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, voyeurism, kleptomania, and pedophilia. So I had to report that I had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but my diagnosis date was a little bit of a moving target because my doctor had had said bipolar disorder and then depression. And he, again, wasn't really qualified to be deciding either of those things.

Matt Besser (06:26):
Was it that initial doctor who maybe gave you the wrong meds that ultimately diagnosed you with bipolar? Or when did that happen?

Karyn Washington (06:33):
Well, that's the funny story is he, he would use the terms interchangeably. So he didn't really, again, bless his heart, but he was more like an old school like country kind of doctor. So it, it wasn't, it was a moving target of a date. And it was even a moving target of a diagnosis. When I went to Columbus, obviously I told them that I thought part of what had, what I had done had to do with my illness, but because there was no real record of treatment, there was no real record of a diagnosis state or, or what have you. The board had determined that it was kind of just a convenient excuse for what I had done rather than sort of an explanation. And they told me I could not take the bar. This was 2013. I had to wait until 20, I think it was 16, that I had to wait, I think.

Karyn Washington (07:28):
And so after that happened, I was really angry. I felt like I had been railroaded and, and I stayed that way for a little while. And then I finally got to this place in my head where I'm like, maybe I'll just go try to get some treatment and see what's going on. So I did, and it took a minute, but I finally got my diagnosis a clear one from a licensed, you know, psychiatrist. They put me on not just an antidepressant, but also a mood stabilizer, which is necessary when you have my illness to keep you balanced. And that was in May of 2013.

Matt Besser (08:13):
Can I ask, how did you go about finding the right doctor? 'cause I know for a lot of folks, you know, the medical system is confusing and overwhelming generally. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. But when you're dealing with a diagnosis of this sort, it's really important to have a doctor who, who knows this area. How did you go about finding the right, the right doctor and, and we'll set aside the question of the right medications for now?

Karyn Washington (08:42):
Well at the time I was uninsured, and this was prior to the a CA. And so my, my job at the time did not have health insurance as an option. So I kind of, it, it was almost kind of good that I didn't have insurance because I was kind of limited in where I could go. So I hunted down a couple of, you know, places that dealt with people who didn't have insurance. And at the time, I think it was called Circle Health Services, I don't know if that's still the name of it, but they had low cost to free, not just physical health and dental, but also mental health treatment. So I was really lucky that I was able to get in and see someone there. And I got that diagnosis. And, and at the time, again, because they're free clinic, one of the things they do is they don't even necessarily give you like the little prescription thing that you have to take to the drugstore.

Karyn Washington (09:35):
They actually have, you know, the sample packets and things like that. So I at least wasn't spending money on a lot of meds that may or may not have worked. Yeah. That was almost a blessing not to have the insurance, but about nine months later maybe I actually got a job that had insurance available and it was really good insurance. And so I was able to start going to university hospitals in the Cleveland Clinic. So I, I kind of transferred over there and it took maybe one or two doctors. I actually ended up finding a, a, a certified nurse practitioner who specialized in psychiatric care. And I, I cannot say enough about CMPs in, in a lot of ways they're, they're almost better than the psychiatrists, you know, they, they spend a little more time with you and, and things like that. So I would see her once every month to try different meds and do adjustments and see what was working and what wasn't.

Karyn Washington (10:33):
The thing is, in that time where you are trying to find the right treatment and trying to find the right combinations, you can cycle up and down, but you can also start feeling clearheaded. And when you start to feel clearheaded, you start to understand what you've done in your life as a result of the illness. And you can start to, and I did start to realize all the damage that you've done to others and to yourself and your life. And so I think the lowest point that I hit, and I think it's still my lowest point that I've had along this journey is, and pardon me if I get a little emotional about this, I give this lecture all the time, this, this presentation, and I, it just, every time this part kind of gets me, it was probably about November of 2013 ish and I had just started trying to get the meds right and they were just starting to work.

Karyn Washington (11:54):
But I remember standing in my kitchen in the middle of the night, and at the time I was living with my parents. I just remember standing there in the middle of the night staring at my parents' knife block and going, which one would hurt the least? Because I felt so much guilt and shame and, and self-loathing. And I felt like my life was over anyway, because I basically set it on fire. And so I, I stood there just looking at this thing for a while and I finally kinda stopped and I thought, if you do this, it's just another mess for someone to clean up. And I think at the time I was just thinking physically, like, I don't want someone to have to come down here and mop up after me. But, but really it was, if you do this, it's just more pain that you're inflicting on other people.

Karyn Washington (12:59):
And if you don't care about yourself, you care about those people. So, went back upstairs, went to bed, got up the next day and went to work. So it's been, oh my God, over 10 years now, <laugh>. And it's taken a lot of different meds. It's taken a lot of different combinations. It's taken a lot of, you know, I've, I've been to a couple different providers because they leave or they retire or whatever. And I've had about 10 million therapy sessions, <laugh>. And I finally have gotten to a place in 2019 where I reapplied for the bar actually had, you know, I, I waited a little while longer than I even had to because I wanted to make sure that I really was ready. I had letters from my doctors, I had letters from my bosses recommending me. 'cause I had been very upfront about why I wasn't a lawyer with my bosses. You know, they hire you as a legal assistant and they're like, you have a law degree, what are you doing? I had another hearing in Columbus 'cause they wanna make sure I wasn't still an issue and I got to take the bar, took me a couple tries, but I passed it. And I was able to kindly kind of finally feel like, okay, this is where I should be now.

Matt Besser (14:29):
You know, obviously a lot of ups and downs to get there, right. To get, you don't even call it the finish line 'cause it's when you're just starting your career, but yeah. But what do you, what do you say to people that you meet who are still in the midst of the rollercoaster and, and particularly when it comes to finding the right doctors or just going through the medication adjustments, because I think we all know if we've been through it, that there's a lot of guesswork involved in finding the right balance of medications and there are some frustrating and, and sometimes despairing periods where it feels like I'm never gonna find the right balance of meds. What do you tell people out there or the people that you meet who are in that spot?

Karyn Washington (15:17):
I think the biggest thing that people need to realize is that there is no magic pill that is gonna fix most things. You have to understand that there is always going to be an adjustment period, whether it's mental health treatments or if it's high blood pressure medication or if it's diabetes medication. There's reason that there's so many of them. And it's because there is no one size fits all kind of solution. And it can be extremely frustrating at first. And even when you find a good combination, sometimes circumstances change where you have to add something or change something. You know, I have been on generally the same medications for quite some time, but you know, in the winter I have to add a little stronger antidepressant because, you know, we live in a giant gray nightmare for, you know, seven months.

Matt Besser (16:10):
Now I have to give a disclaimer to the downtown Cleveland Alliance so that we don't tick them off, but

Karyn Washington (16:16):
No, no, no. I meant Ohio. Just Ohio. Yeah. You know, but it, it, you have to add that. Or if I feel like I'm getting manic, I have to maybe add an, you know, a, a antipsychotic of some kind, which sounds terrifying, but it's really not. And those all come with some side effects even now. But you have to think about how you feel without any medication versus how you are going to feel when you find the right ones. And most side effects don't last forever. Most of 'em taper off or they, you know, you can learn to live with them. If there's one that you can't live with, then you, that's not the med for you. You know, my my kind of hard line was, I, I don't wanna take anything that is gonna make me gain a lot of weight because if I take something that's gonna make me gain a lot of weight, I will be even more depressed than if I wasn't on that bed.

Karyn Washington (17:10):
So that was kind of my line in the sand. Everybody has a different one, but I think the, the most important thing is to understand and have grace with yourself and patience with yourself. And the other thing that I do is if I'm adjusting a med, I, and I think it's gonna affect me at work, you know, if I feel like I'm gonna be tired or brain foggy or whatever, I'm very honest with my coworkers or my bosses and just tell them, you know, it's gonna be a minute, but I'll be okay in a couple of days or whatever. And you ask for support where you need it and, and you just remind yourself every day of how you felt before and how you feel. Now what're

Matt Besser (17:47):
About non-med stuff, right? Not everybody needs medication for their issues. Some people do, some people need medication plus other things. What are, what are some things that you, you tell people that, that they should be thinking about?

Karyn Washington (18:02):
I'm of the opinion that everybody could use therapy. Every adult human could, could use some therapy because we all have something, even if it's not a mental, mental illness. We all have anxiety, we all have stress, we all have things in our lives that, that challenge us and that we may not know how to process on our own. And sometimes even if it's just going into a therapist's office and yelling for half an hour about your boss, you know, in a place where you can safely do that without getting fired, that to me is one of the biggest things I recommend. I know that people kinda struggle with therapy 'cause they don't find the right therapist at first and then they give up on it or whatever. But it's just like medication. Sometimes it takes you a couple of 'em to Yeah. Find the person you connect with. And the other thing is, and I think this is especially important for attorneys and especially important in attorneys who practice areas like domestic relations or, you know, employment law. You wouldn't know anything about that would you? Matt <laugh>?

Matt Besser (18:57):
It depends who you ask, right?

Karyn Washington (18:58):
I think the biggest thing is you have have a life outside of your job. You have to find something that is yours that does not involve your work, that does not involve, you know, anything that you feel like you have to do this. And, and for some people that is their therapy. You know, whether it's it's art, you know, art therapy or going to museums or exercising or, or fishing or, you know, for me it's actually puzzles. I do a lot of puzzles and then I frame them and put them in my office. <Laugh>. But it, you just have to carve out that time for yourself on a regular basis because otherwise you drown in it.

Matt Besser (19:45):
Well, I appreciate you giving the, the shout out to phishing for me. 'cause You know, people who know me know that that's my thing. That's my way of shutting off the lawyerly part of my brain. And, and for me it has been a, a godsend on, on how to deal with anxiety and, and, and daily life stressors.

Karyn Washington (20:03):
Well, part of the, I mean the reason I thought of that is number one, because of you, but also like the, I wanna give kind of an example of what that looks like, what that healthy balance looks like. Domestic relations is just, i, I personally think it's like the hardest area of lot of practice. If you are a person who is struggling with a mental illness or a substance abuse issue, just because of the nature of it, you are dealing with people's emotions. You are dealing with their children, you are dealing with high conflict situations. I'm also a guardian ad litem in addition. So I'm dealing with a lot of unhappy people who they're fighting over their kids and it can be a real struggle. My boss, Pete Kerner has been doing this work for 20 years now, and he is the most well balanced attorney that I have ever met, especially in domestic relations.

Karyn Washington (21:03):
And I say that because he has probably three times the caseload I have. And he works like, I don't know, 160 hours a week or whatever it is he does. He's always working even on vacation. He works. But Pete has found this amazing ability of when he's not working, he's not working his, he, he can shut his brain off and just go do the things that make him happy and enjoy his life. And one of those things is fishing. He, he, he enjoys fishing, he enjoys shooting clay pigeons. I actually do that with him sometimes. It's kind of fun. And that's how, you know, you have a good relationship with your boss is when you can be around each other with guns and not feel <laugh> not feel awkward or, you know, like so,

Matt Besser (21:54):
Or tempted.

Karyn Washington (21:55):
Tempted. But that's, he, he amazes me because he comes in just, he gets stressed, but he manages to process it. Yeah. And doesn't take his work home with him in an emotional way. Yeah.

Matt Besser (22:09):
So I, I don't think we could talk about domestic relations work or, or any kind of legal work without talking about burnout and, and secondary trauma, how to recognize it and, and how to set boundaries for it. What are some things that you see in others? What are some potential triggers that you are watchful for about secondary trauma and burnout and Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and, and what do you do personally or tell others to do to keep from, from falling into that very, very easy trap?

Karyn Washington (22:42):
I'll sort of relate this back to Pete a little bit because I'm still learning how to do it and I'm learning it from him is when you do those kind of high conflict areas, especially you can run into this thing where you either get emotionally just drained entirely and you, you get emotionally tied to your cases in a way that you shouldn't not, not necessarily 'cause it's wrong professionally, but because it's wrong for you, it's bad for you to do it because you, they're dealing with their own situation, but you're dealing with their situation times like 50, right? Like you've got 50 of those cases. So you can either end up being emotionally just bereft and not have anything left for yourself because you're taking on their feelings and you're trying to play therapist at the same time as attorney. They can't yell at their spouse, they wanna yell in somebody's direction and they yell at you, or you turn around and just become what I call a gray rock. And you have nothing emotionally at all. You wall yourself off from everything. And I mean, personally and professionally, and you don't get to forge bonds with people. And so the middle ground is really separating. Like, I don't like when, or I shouldn't say this, I don't understand people who use their personal cell phone as their work cell phone too. I, I don't know how people do that.

Matt Besser (24:13):
Well, it's for me it's simple. It's 'cause I'm at high risk of losing the one cell phone I have. If you give me two <laugh> for forget about it, let alone the chargers. I mean, just the charger situation alone Yes. Would drive me up the wall.

Karyn Washington (24:28):
See, I ended up getting a second cell phone. I have an iPhone for personal, this is a, an Android because I have to separate myself and if my work email and my work number are on my personal phone, I'm gonna do nothing but check emails and take work phone calls after six o'clock. You know? And then you set up this precedent where clients think that they can get ahold of you after six o'clock and then you feel obligated. And it's this vicious cycle. So whether it's getting a second laptop so that your personal stuff isn't on your work stuff. I put everything in my home office at night. My work laptop's in there, my work cell phone's in there. It's on silent. It, it's gone out of my head at that point. Yeah.

Matt Besser (25:08):
It's so hard, right? Because we have this drive to succeed and we have billable hour pressure. Mm-Hmm. And we're, we're chasing success and chasing our career expectations. And, and we do often get ourselves emotionally tied up in our client's cases. And it, it just becomes real easy to fall down that slippery slope where that barrier between work and life becomes very, very permeable. And eventually they blend to the point you can't recognize 'em. When I speak to law students about these sorts of issues, I I use the analogy of a surgeon. So I'm curious what you think about it. You know, if you needed surgery, you wouldn't want a surgeon who doesn't care if you live or die. But you also probably wouldn't want a surgeon who cares so much that they're not sleeping for, for days and weeks on end. And they have to self-medicate themselves because they're so emotionally invested. You gotta find that middle ground, right? Agree. Where, where you've got some, some professional distance and, and there's a big zone in there where you can have professional distance and still care. Right?

Karyn Washington (26:19):
Right. That's what I, I try to maintain is at the end of the day, I want my clients to feel that, that I respect them, but I want them to feel that I'm not above them When I meet with clients, I, I don't wear a business suit every day of the office. Like I wear normal kind of business casual clothes or jeans and a nice sweater so that they don't feel like they are being talked down to. But I want them to also see me as a professional rather than a friend. Right. And that's part of why I don't take calls after hours. That's part of why I try to put that, that boundary, because, you know, you'll take a phone call from a friend at nine o'clock at night, but you don't wanna set up that kind of precedent. And as far as I think success as a lawyer is when you realize that you are not your job and your job is not you.

Karyn Washington (27:17):
And that's the most important way of maintaining that boundary is we allow ourselves to get to the point where being lawyers our identity and that that's all we know. You know, that's all we talk about. We hang out with other lawyers and we, we get into this little mindset. And I think also just touching on the substance abuse thing that you were talking about with the surgeon, one of the things that I want to change, I guess in this profession is we we're all required to do these substance abuse classes, right? Cles and, and things like that. You have to do it to take the bar, you have to do it every two years with your CLEs, but how many events do our bar associations hold where alcohol is served? I really want that to change. I'm on the mental health and wellness committee here at, at the Cleveland Bar as well as the bar admissions committee. And that's one of the things that we've talked about is the importance of if you're gonna hang out with other lawyers and you're gonna be in this profession having alternatives to, to network and socialize that don't involve those things. Yeah. So I think that's another way that we maintain our sanity is not adding to it. Right.

Matt Besser (28:39):
That's a good plug for Bar circle <laugh>

Karyn Washington (28:42):
Or for the,

Matt Besser (28:42):
The informal peer support groups we've set up. Right. Which are, you know, social and member driven and, and they can decide, each group sort of decides for themselves what format and what way is best for them to share their experiences and, and Yep. You know, what we're seeing so far by and large is they're, they're not getting together for after work drinks. They're, they're finding other ways that they can connect and support each other. And, you know, that's just one of the different ways that people can cope with and, and, and process, you know, the stresses of the profession. I wonder if I can't run by you some other ideas for what lawyers can do and, and you tell me if you strongly agree, strongly won't go one through five. I

Karyn Washington (29:28):
Wasn't told there was gonna be a test.

Matt Besser (29:31):
Well, it's a more of a quiz show format, but, you know, these are things that I've, I've read from other professionals don't skip vacations.

Karyn Washington (29:42):
Strongly agree, but I'm bad at it myself.

Matt Besser (29:44):
Right. See, we're all bad at it, but it, but it's important, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> setting boundaries and expectations with your employer, with clients.

Karyn Washington (29:53):
Strongly agree. And just to touch on the employer thing, I think there's a lot of people, and I, I have assistance who work under me and I tell them, you need to be good at telling people when you can't get something done and asking for help if you can't get something done or don't know how to get something done. I think a lot of the time with junior associates or, or you know, things like that, people feel like, if I can't do this or if I need help doing this, or if I'm struggling right now with something, if I tell anybody that I'm gonna be looked at as weak or incompetent or in, you know, incapable, whether it's by clients or my bosses and you, we all need to do better about doing that.

Matt Besser (30:35):
What about hitting the pause button? You know, the, the, the, the figurative emotional pause button. I can confess that, you know, there are times when I'll have so much going on that it can be sort of overwhelming to figure out what thing to do first. And you get like this paralysis by analysis or paralysis by sense of overwhelm. And sometimes I find that if I just, okay, hit, hit the pause button, stop for five minutes, gather yourself, I'm better able to make a plan to see things in a more organized way. Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes that means when I have to, I go for a walk, I leave the office for a little bit.

Karyn Washington (31:18):
Oh yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And I, I think that's really important because I know what you're talking about with the sort of, okay, I've got 40 things to do and they're all a priority, so I'm gonna just sit here and have a sandwich. You know, like, I, I, I don't know what to do, so I'm not gonna do anything. When I first started with my current firm, I had gotten used to being a solo for the most part. And I didn't have an assistant, I didn't have anybody but me. And I was really, really bad at first at delegating and saying, you know what, maybe I don't need to pick up the phone every single time it rings. Maybe I need to let my assistant schedule stuff for me. Maybe I need to time block, time blocking is amazing. I don't know if you do it, but it

Matt Besser (32:01):
Has been Tell tell us what you mean by by that.

Karyn Washington (32:03):
So, so time blocking is where you literally set an hour. This is on my calendar. You know, I set an hour in the morning for emails, an hour in the afternoon for emails and an hour, you know, at the end of the day for emails. And that's when I do emails and I close my inbox after that. And it, I don't look at it. If you've got like a motion for summary judgment or something you have to do, if you just write down, I gotta do this motion for summary judgment, you're gonna look at that and be like I, I got nothing. But if you write something like, okay, write the introduction to your motion and then do your legal research tomorrow, and you've set that for certain times, you break down those tasks and all of a sudden it's a lot more manageable and you start checking stuff off. And then you feel good about checking stuff off and you become more productive. Which means if you're more productive, you have more time to yourself later.

Matt Besser (32:55):
It's a great tip. And I try and do it myself. And, and when I'm able to do it, which I'm not always Oh,

Karyn Washington (33:01):
And schedule time to eat, I'm really, really bad at scheduling time to eat to the point where my assistant came in one day and took my keyboard away from me <laugh> and made me eat my lunch <laugh>.

Matt Besser (33:11):
Yeah. If we're reaching the point where we're forgetting to eat Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> we've, we've got, we've got issues eating, sleeping, drinking water. Yeah. It's survival. And then, and then we sort of get to mental health, right?

Karyn Washington (33:23):
Yes. It all affects it.

Matt Besser (33:24):
This has been great. I we could talk about strategies. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> all day long. I think, I think the key for folks is, is recognizing the warning signs of when you might be approaching, or burnout when you might be getting affected by secondary trauma and, and your work performance is, is struggling. Your wellbeing is struggling. But I, I wanna close with, with the one thing above all else that really, really stuck out to me when I first heard your story, which is you go through this really, really challenging career and, and personal struggle and, and you face this enormous setback of not being able to sit for the bar, which, which I can imagine would must have been devastating. But, but you described it as the best thing that could have happened to you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Why do you say that?

Karyn Washington (34:17):
Well, it's because if I hadn't had, I mean, everybody, they say rock bottom, right? And usually when you think about that, you think about, you know, substance use and addiction. For me that the rock bottom, that was me going, okay, this goal that I've had since I was like 12 years old, that's not happening right now. It may never happen and I don't have anywhere to go but up, I guess. Like, if I hadn't been denied the ability to sit, I wouldn't have bothered getting treatment. There wouldn't have been a reason to, and frankly, I would not be an effective attorney at all. So for me, thinking back to that time in my life, I don't even have a lot of memories of it, honestly, because I was so mentally just up and down and in and out. And, and mania can do that to you too.

Karyn Washington (35:14):
It can kind of make you not remember stuff that you did 'cause you do the thing and then you put the thing aside. But I know how much better I feel now, and I know the relationships I have now. And if you had told me in 2013 that I would be sitting in a room doing a podcast as a lawyer on the same admissions committee, I'm, I'm at the bar admissions committee and I'm actually bar counsel now on those, on those character and fitness cases. And it was actually your, your partner Kathy Bullock, who was bar counsel on my second hearing.

Matt Besser (35:50):
Was she nice to you?

Karyn Washington (35:51):
She was so nice. Oh good. She was Is she nice to you?

Matt Besser (35:55):
I, I, listen, we've been partners for 15 years, so

Karyn Washington (35:58):
She was, she was fantastic and she actually was the one who recommended I do the mental health committee even before I was a lawyer. And all of those things got me here. And I, I know I'm a better lawyer because of it. I know that I'm a better person because of it. And I did wanna just say one other thing is olap, I actually joined OLAP when I was denied admission and I was starting to get that mental health treatment. I was like, oh, well here's another thing I can do that may or may not be helpful, but I can't say how it hurt. And usually attorneys think of OLAP is something that you're ordered into when you commit some disciplinary issue, but it can be preventative, it can be a treatment, but it can also be a preventative a prophylactic. And I think it's not used that way a lot.

Karyn Washington (36:49):
And I think people don't understand that it is a resource, not a punishment. And Paul Cay was amazing. I started doing these presentations with him at law schools because I wanted to use this experience. I had to keep other people from making those mistakes. And if there is one person in every audience, whether it's a lawyer, whether it's a law student, if there's one person who comes up to me afterward and says something you said, spoke to me, I need help. Or I have a friend who needs help, or I have a coworker or, you know, an associate at my firm who I see maybe dealing with these issues a lot of the time I will direct 'em right to Ola because it's confidential. You can call down there if you see somebody at your firm who's having these struggles and they are so amazing at what they do.

Karyn Washington (37:42):
I would be remiss if I didn't share that with, with everybody, because I think it would help people to know that it doesn't have to get to the point of a disciplinary action. It doesn't have to get to the point where you're, you're not able to take the bar. Every single presentation I give somebody will say, you know, oh, you're really brave for doing this. And I sort of, okay, but I'm, I don't feel like I'm brave. I feel like I'm doing what I can with the experience that I've had to help other people not have it. And to me that's just, why wouldn't I do that? So all of these things we've discussed, people can take what they want to take from it, but hopefully I've accomplished, and I'm sure you have accomplished the same thing here that I want in my presentations, which is for somebody to hear it and go, oh, that sounds like me. And maybe reach out and, and get help. And if anybody needs help getting help, one of the benefits of doing what I do for a living is I have lots of resources for people to find help. So I I am always happy to talk to people privately about it.

Matt Besser (38:57):
That's a great note to end on, Karen, thank you. And, and take Karen up on her offer. You can also go to the CMBA website, the, the mental health and wellness page. And, and one of the things we've tried to do this year to lower the barriers to entry for folks is, is to offer a variety of different resources that are out there. Make them easy for, for lawyers to understand, easy to find because sometimes taking that first step really is the hardest. So Karen, thank you so much for, for sharing your story. I can promise you there is somebody out there who's gonna hear it and say, this sounds like me. And we'll, we'll take something positive from it. So on behalf of the bar, I just wanna thank you for sharing. I'll tell you that you are brave and, and I'm very appreciative personally. We, we all are. So thanks for joining us.

Karyn Washington (39:47):
I, it has been an a complete honor. I'm, I'm happy to help in any way I can and like I said, if anyone has any questions, look me up, you'll find me and I'll be happy to do what I can.

Melanie Farrell (39:59):
Thank you for listening. CMBA members, if you want to record your own podcast, it's a simple as visiting CLE metro bar.org/podcasts. We'll do the rest. See you soon with another my bar story.