My BarStory S02E13 - John Cipolla and Matt Besser

Mental illness doesn't just affect individuals. It affects families, teams, and even the entire legal industry. As we continue our emphasis on lawyers' mental well-being with our In It Together theme. Calfee, Halter & Griswold LLP Firm Chair John Cipolla wanted to share his story. He tells CMBA President Matt Besser what he has learned, and what he wants others to know about helping a family to live and thrive when one of them is struggling.

Transcript

Kari Burns (00:05):
Hi, I am Kari Burns, chief Strategy Officer of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. This year, our theme is in it together, focusing on mental health for attorneys. Join us as we dive into inspiring stories, challenges, and triumphs, highlighting the importance of wellbeing in the legal profession. And remember, we're all in it together. Well,

John Cipolla (00:27):
My name is John Cipolla. I am an IP litigator predominantly, although I do a lot of things in the IP world besides litigation, a lot of things related to patents, trade secrets, trademark issues. But I've been involved in the IP world since I was 22 and I'm now gonna be 61 in a month or two. So it was quite a long time.

Matt Besser (00:50):
Why'd you become a lawyer?

John Cipolla (00:52):
Well, you know, I sort of fell into it. I didn't set out to be a lawyer. I'm first one in my family to be a lawyer. I took a few I have to have an engineering or technology degree. And I went to Bowling Green State University. And as part of the requirements, we had to take a couple law related classes. I took Business Law and Con Law and I, constitutional law, <laugh>. I really liked and enjoyed those classes. We were also required to do co-ops, a lot of engineers. You know what a co-op is during the summer you work for a company. We work in an engineering area, and I happened to work in an engineering area for a company called Bailey Controls, which really doesn't exist anymore in Woodcliffe, Ohio. They had a position open in which I did some legal related issues related to patents, trademarks, and other issues, regulatory things, CS getting CSA UL certifications. Yeah. And I really liked it. So then I thought might be an area I want to go into, and a job opened up at Bailey and they offered me a position sort of as their patent and trademark coordinator. So I jumped into it and I went to law school at night.

Matt Besser (01:59):
How long have you been at Cal Faith?

John Cipolla (02:00):
Somewhere between about 29, 30 years. Maybe a slightly less than 30 years. Yeah.

Matt Besser (02:06):
So you and I met in an unusual way for lawyers. I think we met because you were then president of the board of directors for the Cleveland Chapter of the National Alliance of Mental Illness, right?

John Cipolla (02:19):
Correct. Correct. And you had an interest in talking to them, and so you gave me a ring. That's how we got together.

Matt Besser (02:26):
How did you become involved in nami and and what do they do?

John Cipolla (02:30):
Nami just like you said, stands for the National Alliance for Mental Illness. And they are a grassroots organization. They're all over the country. There's na, a national chapter. Each state has a state chapter and most major cities and a lot of communities across the entire United States and internationally have NAMI chapters. I think it was back in the seventies, maybe the late sixties. Some parents of children that had suffered from mental illness needed support. And so they formed this grassroots organization to get support, give each other support to advocate for people with mental illness to their legislatures, and to educate the public and educate people that are dealing with these issues all about mental illness and the meds that are used to treat 'em. Everything that you can learn about

Matt Besser (03:23):
It. How'd you get involved in NAMI and, and ultimately become president of the board?

John Cipolla (03:27):
The way I got involved with NAMI is I actually attended one of their support group sessions for, I was probably for about three, four months with my wife. My son when he was 19. My oldest son, I have three sons. One, my oldest son when he was 19, was diagnosed with a mental illness called schizoaffective disorder, which actually is pretty severe mental disorder. And at that point in my life, I was probably around 44, 45. I really didn't have any experience with mental illness and neither did my wife. And we needed to learn a lot and we needed support from others as pretty shocking what happens when, when, when that happens. And they provided me a lot of support and our family, a lot of support. And I felt like I it was something I'd like to get involved with and passionate and give, give back to the organization. So someone that was on the board asked me to join the board and I don't know when that was <laugh> 15 years ago, 14 years ago. And I joined the board and then I became president six or seven years ago of the board. And then recently at the end of last year, I turned the president of the organization to another gentleman by the name of John Rice. Great person. And I'm still on the board.

Matt Besser (04:49):
What is, what is, when you say NAMI provided you and your wife support, what does that, what does that look like?

John Cipolla (04:55):
What happens is, is you sign up for family to family, which is really sort of their keystone program. Meet with other families of caregivers or parents that are dealing with mental illness and their families once a week for a period of about 10 weeks, I think it was maybe 12 weeks. You have facilitators or teachers, I call them teachers, but they were mental health nurse worked in mental health facilities. They have, you know, pretty good program for, you know, support, facilitating support, getting people to work together and give a lot of materials on the illnesses and what they are. And, you know, the chemical imbalance teach you about chemical imbalances and things, which, you know, are the root of a lot of these things.

Matt Besser (05:39):
We've been talking a lot about lawyers' own mental or emotional health struggles. Your story's a little bit different, right? I mean, you're, you're caregiver, a supporter, a family member, father of, of someone with a mental health condition. How has your role as a, as a parent, a family member of someone with with mental health challenges impacted your practice? How has it impacted your own wellbeing

John Cipolla (06:08):
At times? I mean there are like maybe three or four different things there. My own practice, a lot of people that I work with know about my son's situation and there's times where, you know, I have to take off or I've had to take off in the past, over the past 15 or 16 years to deal with issues related to him. And related to going to mental health facilities or helping him with things or dealing with things related to that, it's affected and it, it does put a lot of stress on a marriage. I mean my wife and I luckily are a very good team in dealing with, with the situation where it doesn't, doesn't mean that there's not a lot of stress involved. You know, a lot of debates about how things should be treated or how things should be handled and these are touchy tough issues.

John Cipolla (07:04):
But, you know, as a result of that, I'm also get educated. So through the years I happen to manage several people. I manage the IP group. If you add all the people together, probably about 50 to 60 people. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, probably 30 to 40 lawyers through the years. Maybe 20 to 40 lawyers through those period of years. Yeah. And I've been able to help them when they've had to deal with it in their own family. When, when I've spotted people that have need to deal with it themselves too and try to help 'em and get 'em support and teach 'em about NAMI and, and, and, and mental health.

Matt Besser (07:37):
That's all good leadership. <Laugh> and, and it's good role modeling that come naturally to you. Did it come through years of trial and error experimentation? Was it Nami, was it something else that that helped you learn how to be a good supporter of, of people who are struggling

John Cipolla (07:58):
When you know that the challenges that are involved with this, for as a parent or any caregiver, you become a lot more compassionate, empathetic, you know, you, you care I don't wanna say care more, but you can sympathize more with the person you've felt it, you know it and you know how serious these things are.

Matt Besser (08:21):
You've had a little bit of a double whammy in your life because you're, you are on one hand a parent, a family member of someone with a mental health struggle. You've also chosen a profession that is not exactly known for being easy on one's own wellness. Have those two things ever collided for you? What do you do to take of your, yourself

John Cipolla (08:43):
Taking care of ourselves as lawyers is probably, you know, I, I've had a long career. I'm lucky to have a long career and it's something that, you know, goes, gets last on the list almost always. 'cause You're taking care of your family, right? You're taking care of your clients. You are are very busy. You don't have the time, the time constraints with which you had to even pay attention to mental health. Any health go to the doctor for checkups and things like that are put to the back burner. And so, you know, I've learned a lot through the years. I haven't always been good at that and taking care of myself and things like that. I mean, but when you, when you have a situation dealing with my son, it's also good for the family to have counseling and to your wife or your spouse and, and you to have counseling and to get some advocates in your lives to help you work through some of these issues.

John Cipolla (09:37):
And I've done that from time to time when we've needed it. We've done that together. It's been very helpful. And a lot of people I think are, there's a lot of stigma involved with getting help, whether it's family counseling, right, singular counseling, personal counseling. And it is, it is something that is I think, really needed. And having someone, a son that's mentally ill and dealing with it, that's one thing that goes by the wayside with people a lot of times that have mental illness. They really don't like continuing with their counseling once they feel better. And a lot of times the reason they feel better is 'cause of the counseling <laugh> and Right. They stop when, when it's over and when they, when they feel better and it's, it's not, not good. So yeah.

Matt Besser (10:19):
What do you say to lawyers who are out there and, and find themselves in a similar situation, either with a spouse or a parent or, or a child who's got a mental health issue or an emotional health issue.

John Cipolla (10:37):
One thing they do teach you, and now, I mean, a lot of these classes is taking care of the caregivers. Gotta be number one, even unrelated to mental health. If you're taking care of some physical, someone, a physical or a caregiver or someone of the physical illnesses, the caregiver, you gotta really try to focus. And it's a hard thing to do, take care of that caregiver, number one, because otherwise everything could collapse. So it's really important to do that and to try to find the time with it. I mean, I've seen the practice of law and the way the information that's out there and what's accepted and what isn't really evolved. I, I think we are in a better place. You know, I, I really do think there's a lot of hope. Just the fact that you and I are talking about this is, is hope.

John Cipolla (11:22):
But there, it, it is a focus becoming a focus of our society more. And I don't know whether it's, it's generational. It may be just the time that we're in, but people are becoming more aware of it and they've really gotta try to make mental health be part of their overall wellbeing. You go in there and get your heart checked, whether you have high blood pressure, you should be taking care of just the same as if you, you need a mental tuneup or you need mental, you, you hire a personal trainer to get healthy with your heart or your body. Well, why can't you hire a counselor to help you get the most important organ in your body? Arguably that controls everything else, your brain right straight.

Matt Besser (11:59):
Do you think that your career has been hurt by the, by the fact that you're a caregiver for someone who's got a mental health issue?

John Cipolla (12:07):
I really don't, in my case, believe that it's been hurt. I've been happy with my career and been successful arguably. And I, I, I don't think that it's been hurt and I've had understanding people that I work with and managing partners of our firms and my firm and yeah. And things like that that know that. So I don't think it has been hurt. I'm also pretty good at compartmentalizing at things and I'm pretty lucky in that I'm stress sort of rolls off me more than a lot of people <laugh>. And I think it's an innate thing. It's a lucky god-given thing that, you know, the way my disposition is and that's a ability to deal with things. So

Matt Besser (12:47):
That's a useful skill. Yeah. But I think you know that a lot of lawyers don't have it. Right. Right,

John Cipolla (12:51):
Right.

Matt Besser (12:52):
What do you say to the lawyers out there who find themselves as, as family members, caregivers or who just as likely, maybe more likely themselves are struggling with their own mental emotional wellness, but are they're just scared or not ready? Think they don't have the time for whatever reason or resistant to taking that first step?

John Cipolla (13:14):
I would recommend that they somehow figure out a way to do it if you're afraid or just reluctant to let anyone know. There are many now confidential counseling places. There are many counselors out there. Talk to your, if you have a primary physician, a lot of times they can be very helpful. They're attuned to this now, when I go get a checkup, a physical, theoretically physical checkup, they ask me all kinds of issues about my mental wellbeing and be honest with those doctors. And you can find help if you really try to and be do it. I mean, you just have to find the time to do it and do it because it's so important. And if you cover these things up there's all kinds of things that it just can get a lot worse. And I've seen it get a lot worse with people that either I've worked with or my own family.

John Cipolla (14:10):
There are often people like me. I mean, I, I really do think that practice of law has gotten better. There are a lot of people that, you know, this is a lot more public than it's ever been. And, and there are a lot of compassionate people out there. If you, you got your gut instinct tells you that, okay, you know, this would be a huge, I have a good relationship with this person. I think I could talk to this person. It's very likely that you can Yeah. And that person will be receptive and try to help you find help.

Matt Besser (14:42):
Have you found that people are genuinely compassionate?

John Cipolla (14:45):
I, I do find that people are genuinely compassionate. A lot of people feel sorry for me or feel sorry for our family. I, which is something that I particularly sometimes don't care for <laugh>, depending when I was delivered, you know, because I do believe that we have a really good life and we got a lot of really good things going. So you don't have to feel sorry for me, but just, you know, acknowledge that that's part of, part of life.

Matt Besser (15:13):
Well, do you think that that not wanting people to feel sorry for them is, is maybe one of the reasons why lawyers don't take care of themselves? Why they do try and resist self care and, and keep these things to themselves, maybe suffer in silence?

John Cipolla (15:29):
I do think it probably is. They, they're, it goes along with the whole stigma thing.

Matt Besser (15:33):
Do you think your career would be in the same place it is today if you hadn't been so open about your family's challenges with mental health?

John Cipolla (15:42):
Undoubtedly it would've been probably worse because the going along with just my personality, you know, to be open and talk about things and try to get less embarrassed as I can about anything. Right. That's probably one of my motto, <laugh>. But you know, it, it, it's really helped if you bottle that stuff up and hold it in, that's when it really, I think will, will hurt you. You know? Yeah. I do think there's a lot of people out there that will be helpful about it, you know if you let 'em know, if you talk to 'em the way things have evolved, I mean, I never used to physically exercise when my kids were young at all. I mean, I spend a lot of time coaching sport and worrying about them and either working or being with my kids and my family. Right. And never exercising.

John Cipolla (16:30):
Never. You know, I didn't go to the doctor for quite a long time. <Laugh>. I never would get regular checkups till about 10 years ago and everything. But now I exercise regularly vigorously. I go to the doctor, I take care of myself a lot better. Learn breathing exercises, do yoga, things like that. I think that also helps a lot and would've helped when this first came on. I mean, especially the exercising thing. You can't believe how much great endorphins and positive things come into your brain more. It's better for that than your even your body that, I mean, I wish I had done when I, and took the time to do when I was younger. 'cause There's certain things that have in my body that are gonna be unchangeable. Right. sitting in a chair for 12 hours in a row, raining briefs isn't always the most healthy thing to do. Yeah.

Matt Besser (17:17):
How do we get the rest of the way where we need to be? That dealing with mental or emotional health issues is not just de-stigmatized, but normalized

John Cipolla (17:29):
Society is, is evolving to that way. We've all gotta become more aware of it and we've gotta embrace it, society and the medical profession. And that's one of the planks of NAMI's, like five year plan for the next five years, is to, when you think about health and think not only about your physical health, think about mental health. Make it all one. So it's not, because like I said, when you go get your, your heart checked or your blood pressure checked, you check, you check everything. And it's gotta become in society that it's all connected and it's all together. That will help. But you know, we've gotta get educated more on it. And hopefully what you're doing, the bar association and everything will help as well. These, this sort of thing. Right. What we're doing will get us there.

Matt Besser (18:15):
As lawyers, we've been trained for so long to be tough and to put on a brave face. And sometimes even to wear suffering as a badge of honor. Do you think that we have a tendency to look the other way? Either consciously or unconsciously if we see that a colleague or maybe especially an opposing counsel might be struggling?

John Cipolla (18:39):
I think people do look the other way or can look the other way for health issues. Substance abuse issues, whether it's your colleagues, your opposing counsel. People do look the other way. I don't know if it's just with the legal profession though. I think it happens in a lot of <laugh> Sure. Environments. And we've gotta, we've gotta just stop doing that. We've gotta help people and let 'em know that there's help out there and have the courage to do it. I, I know that it's hard and I know that, you know, we do do it <laugh>, so I don't know what to say. But again, the society's gotta change too. And you get educated, you know, and that's NAMI's goal too, is to, you can get on their website or go to one of their programs and they have many online programs that launch Zoom presentations on a lot of things and how to deal with things.

Matt Besser (19:35):
What would you tell a lawyer who, who's hesitant to reach out to, to someone that they see might be struggling about the right ways to do it, the wrong ways to do it, and, and, and why they shouldn't look the other way?

John Cipolla (19:47):
You know, as a manager, we, I've taken things in my own hands and helped people get help <laugh>. When, when things are, it's become apparent that things are not going well at all. Yeah. You know, and, and, and help them do it. Yeah. Help them reach out. Now that's not every case for sure. Right. And a lot of people are in denial and they want to don't, they don't want to face that issue because of everything that's gonna deal with, it's gonna take time almost more than anything. Yeah. Tell them have a come to, you know, Jesus meeting, so to speak with them and, and try to tell 'em. And I've done that before too, but sometimes people react to that hostile Yeah. In a hostile fashion too. Yeah. So, but you only could do your best. And one thing I have learned about mental illness and receptiveness to getting help is that, you know, the, the person, if they don't want to get it, they're not gonna get it. You can't force adults to take medication. You can't force adults to go to counseling <laugh>. Right. You just can't. They might be court ordered at one point counseling or something like that, and then people will go because they have to. But you know, they very likely aren't gonna stick with it.

Matt Besser (21:01):
Do you think lawyers tend to feel alone if they are struggling with mental health issues?

John Cipolla (21:08):
I do believe that they're, they're feeling alone. I mean, there's times when my, I felt alone with my, my situation. Everybody, you know, they feel bad and they care about it, but in the end, I'm the person that's gonna deal with that family issue and I'm the one that's gonna make sure or try to get them to go to counseling and things like that. So you do, you do, you can feel alone. And I'm sure for someone is, is feeling alone that thinks that they may have an issue and is debating it in their head, whether they do or not. And

Matt Besser (21:37):
Yeah.

John Cipolla (21:38):
You know, and that's what counseling is really for, to make you feel not alone and give you somebody to talk to.

Matt Besser (21:44):
What do you say to the folks who feel like they're alone? Nobody could possibly understand my unique situation. No one's gonna care. What do you say to that lawyer who's, who's feeling that isolation? Oh,

John Cipolla (21:57):
Well, one thing is, if, if you can do talk to counseling, but also if you have, you know, a good relationship with someone in your firm, you know, talk to 'em. One thing you do find is that everybody's going through <laugh> through something. You not, you know, you think that you're the only one, you're not the only one. You know, probably there's done other people feeling the same way you do. And that you know, and down and various times you're gonna go through things in your life that are tough, you know, your parents dying or losing a child, God forbid or something. Talking to people is, is the way to, to get over it. And, and this whole support, what NAMI's founded upon is like, we're all in the same boat here. Right. These are my stories. I want to hear your stories, you know. Yeah. And you know, you, you laugh about it sometimes. It's not all great because you gotta be able to laugh at some of this stuff. If you're dealing with others that are, you know, you're talking to people that are dealing with the same things you are. It, it really helps.

Matt Besser (22:56):
Do you think law firms are doing enough to care for their employees, attorney and non-attorneys? Mental and emotional health,

John Cipolla (23:04):
Taking care of your, your employee's Health is a very good thing. And number one, it's a good thing to do. It's the right thing to do. You know, we gotta do the right things, but it also helps with, you know, your workforce and, and, and the people that, you know, really drive a law firm are the people. And it helps them stay in a right frame of mind that they're able to do their job well. So there's a lot of business reasons to, to do it as well. Apart from being the right thing to do. Right. In our firm, we're, we're lucky because I, in addition to myself, there's other people I know that are in leadership positions that are really attuned to mental health issues because either they or their, their yeah. Families suffer from situations and Cal we're lucky on that. We have a lot of people that care about it, but I don't know how it is in a, a lot of other law firms. Right. And what that would be, we are a profession that's founded on just like you said, being tough and stoic and things like that when we need to be.

Matt Besser (24:03):
Do, do you think that being vocal as, as firm leadership being vocal about mental emotional wellness, do you think that that impacts culture of the firm?

John Cipolla (24:12):
I do think it impacts. I, I definitely do think it, it impacts, I mean, 'cause people know about my situation, my involvement with nami. We also support nami, the NAMI walk every year as a firm that you know, it, it's definitely something people know that I'm pretty receptive to talking to people to come in and talk to me about it.

Matt Besser (24:33):
When you and your family found out about your son's condition, that must have been quite a shocking and challenging and scary period to say the least. It sounds like your family found support through your medical treatment, but as well as nami. Right.

John Cipolla (24:50):
Educational support. NAMI was like our big supporter and educational support. 'cause We knew nothing about it. And I, I mean, my son, the illness that he has is really pretty tough One. We researched some of the top mental hospitals in the country at that time and, and we went to one in Houston called Menninger and learned a lot through 'em. And my son went there for a couple months and then we went to another pretty significant mental health facility he went to for another five, six months after that in North Carolina. So you learn, we learned a lot. There were sort of the cutting edge at the time of that, of, of mental health and learned a lot through that. But support, and they, they provided support too. But really it was a NAMI and 'cause like our friends and family, I mean this is really something that was totally new to them. <Laugh>. Yeah. And some of 'em still haven't accepted or learned everything they could about it.

Matt Besser (25:46):
Your family found support through nami Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, there's obviously other ways to to to go about caring for yourself. What do you tell a a a lawyer who's hitting a crisis and doesn't know what to do?

John Cipolla (25:58):
Yeah. If you have a regular physician, you know, your regular primary care physician, they're normally pretty attuned to help helping you find help. There's also, you know, sometimes you just have to go to the mental hospital. And I know where they all are in the Cleveland area, unfortunately, but I do <laugh> so. Right.

Matt Besser (26:19):
What about a lawyer who's just feeling burned out? What do you say to a, a lawyer who's, who's got the same level of experience as you? Or, or maybe they're, maybe they haven't even taken the bar yet, but they're just feeling burned out. What, what do you tell that that lawyer or potential lawyer?

John Cipolla (26:36):
I would try to help them, you know, find counselors, you know, try to help them find counselors based on what they're feeling. And I may, I may talk to NAMI or I may talk to people I know in the mental health profession that 'cause different counselors are good for different mental right situations people are dealing with. There's a lot of counselors out there, but finding the right one I've learned is sometimes a hard thing. And that's one thing about mental illness is sometimes, yeah, it's hard to figure out who the right doctors are, the right psychiatrists and they're not always a good fit and it takes a while and the right medications. In

Matt Besser (27:13):
Your experience, is that frustrating when you Yes. When you have ups and downs or when you, you, you can't find the right counselor?

John Cipolla (27:19):
Definitely frustrating. I, I urge people to keep trying, but it's definitely something that is in the mental health area. Finding the right meds, the right doctors, the right facilities for a particular situation is frustrating. Yeah. I don't know how you, you sort that out. Me being a patent lawyer, I know that there is a company in Cincinnati that will give you a blood test and then try to point you in the right direction for the type of meds that you should be taking based on your body chemistry. This isn't an advertisement, I can't remember their name. Yeah. I don't know if they really worked that well, but Right. That is a definitely a frustrating thing with mental, the mental health area.

Matt Besser (27:58):
What about maintenance of mental and emotional health? We have an expectation that, okay, we've, we've taken the first step, we've decided to make a change. Why am I not better yet? And, and why am I not better forever? What should lawyers' expectations be about, about taking care of their, their mental health and, and and maintain maintaining their mental health over the long

John Cipolla (28:24):
Term? You know, there's no guarantees with mental health or any health that you're gonna be healthy all the time. Some of these things take a lot of time and you just gotta keep trying. Unfortunately, you gotta keep trying to get the right meds, the right doctors, but there are certain things they will tell everyone that will help your mental health. Number one, sleep. Your sleep hygiene is very important. So if you, you need to have a regular sleep program where you're going to bed at the same time getting up pretty much the same. And that's hard for a lot of people I know. Oh yeah. But that's really important. You know, if you maintain that, you'll get better. Exercise has been proven to really, you know, vigorous exercise three or four times a week or any exercise three or four times a week. You know, getting a 10,000 steps super important to your mental health and then your diet if you're eating a lot of processed foods and a lot of really junk food all the time. So I don't think it's any secret. It is not good for your mental health. You eat a lot more vegetables and fruits and believe me, I don't want to be, I don't want to act like I was always good at all these things that I wasn't. But I've learned through the years that it does and it helps and it really does help. Yeah.

Matt Besser (29:32):
So last question. Do you have hope for our profession as it relates to our ability to be both lawyers and be emotionally and, and mentally? Well,

John Cipolla (29:44):
I do have hope. I mean, I have seen improvements a lot. And so I've seen improvements in, like I said, the knowledge that's out there. The what people learning, people talking about it more. So I definitely do believe that there's hope and I, I think that we have gotten better. We're not all the way for sure, but you know, we're getting better. But as a society, it's the same thing. I mean, I, I don't want to tarnish lawyers alone either. I mean, society is always, you know hit a lot of stigma for people with mental illnesses and mental disorders and all these things are linked together. And one thing you also learn, I mean I'm a big into, I wish we'd spent a lot more money on research. We understand the human brain less than any other organ and that's not real smart way to go. Right. Diseases like Parkinson's, dementia are all linked to mental illness. They use the same meds to treat all of those things. Or if you have a traumatic brain disorder or accident, you fall off a mountain or you get in a car accident, they're all using the same meds to treat it. They're all linked. They have the same symptoms. We've gotta do a lot better job at this research. We may never get there. I don't know, but I think we can do a lot better.

Matt Besser (31:01):
John, I very much appreciate your time on behalf of the Bar Association, I very much appreciate your volunteer time for nami. It's so important what, what NAMI does and and your leadership for them. They are a great partner for us and I know they're a great resource for a lot of lawyers who, who could use support. So I just wanna thank you again for your time and your service.

John Cipolla (31:25):
Absolutely. No problem. Thank you for having me.

Kari Burns (31:28):
Thank you for listening to another My Bar story. We truly are all in it together. Would you be comfortable sharing your own stories, like the ones we just heard? Visit c metro bar.org/mental health and sign up. We'll see you soon with another bar story.