My BarStory S02E09 - Tatyana Norman-Webler and John Enger

Our theme for this Bar year is "In It Together".  CMBA 2024-25 President Matthew D. Besser is dedicated to creating honest conversations about mental health like the one you're about to hear.

University of Akron law students John Enger and Tatyana Norman-Webler share honest stories of dealing with mental illness while working hard to get through law school and build a career. Would you be willing to delete all of your social media apps?  Learn why pickleball could be the greatest thing to happen to your mental health.

This podcast contains frank discussions of mental illness including suicide and anxiety. It may not be right for some listeners.

To join us and be "In It Together", visit clemetrobar.org/mentalhealth

Transcript

Kari Burns (00:05):
Hi, I am Kari Burns, chief Strategy Officer of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. This year, our theme is in it together, focusing on mental health for attorneys, join us as we dive into inspiring stories, challenges, and triumphs, highlighting the importance of wellbeing in the legal profession. This episode contains honest discussions about suicide and anxiety. It may not be appropriate for some listeners, and remember, we're all in it together.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (00:35):
Hi, everyone. My name is Tatiana Norman Weer. I am a former registered nurse, and I am now a rising three L at the University of Akron School of Law. I'm the former president of our Health Law Society, and I'm a member of our wellness steering committee at the law school.

John Enger (00:52):
Hello everyone. My name is John Enger. I'm also a rising three L at the University of Akron School of Law. I'm also on the well steering committee with Tatiana, and I work for the Professional Pickleball Association merging my history and background of business with my pursuit of law and pickleball.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (01:12):
We're happy to be here with you today to discuss mental health. That's, I think that's what we're here for, John. We're here to discuss the importance of mental health, especially in the legal profession, and I think especially for, for law students. So I'll start just by asking you, what's your mental health journey been like throughout law school? To

John Enger (01:30):
Really get into that, I feel like I need to talk a little bit prior to law school. I had a little bit of a, of a rocky battle with mental health. Going all the way back to when I was in high school, having a good family friend and, and neighbor on our street who committed suicide. He had a, a full ride for a soccer scholarship and, and just a great life. And, and no one was expecting it. And it, it kind of took the community by surprise. And after my own battles with mental health and wellness, I, I kind of took my my happiness in back into my hands in 2019 and, and really changed what it meant for me, what was most important in life for me. And I found that happiness was the number one goal for me in life. And so ever since December, 2019 everything that I've ever done getting into law school, doing my masters of business, everything has been centered around pursuing what makes me happy and what fulfills my life goals. And, and I think having that in the back of my head as I go through all these difficult and challenging things, I'm able to better take care of myself overall raw.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (02:48):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. What does that actually look like for you on a day to day? You know, when you wake up and you say, today I'm gonna be happy, or I'm only gonna do things that make me happy. Right. I, I mean, we know law school is not just pure joy, pure bliss. There's days that are, are very, very challenging. So how do you remind yourself that, you know, this is your life goal, is to just find happiness?

John Enger (03:13):
So for me, it's, it's my family. Everything I do is has a close connection to my family with my fiance. And, and I've just grown up. I've been fortunate to grow up in a family that everyone has stayed local here in Cleveland. And just trying to embrace our, our wholesome family values and, and care one about care about each other and and trying to be successful. But at the end of the day, i, I, I don't let law school or or anything get into the way of what I find most important in my life of happiness. I don't know. I just, my, my relationship with, with stress and mental health is, has been a close one. And I ju I just I don't know. I, I pri I prioritize it. I guess, I guess to get to your question is, I wake up every morning and think to myself, what can I do to be happy today?

John Enger (04:16):
Like, what, what's what's going to fulfill my life goals? And, and for me, it's, it's waking up, it's working hard, going to school, making sure I'm, I'm doing well and succeeding at everything I do, but at the same time, not being afraid to fail and then coming home every single day to my fiance and to my family and, and spending quality time with them. You know, I, I I I never try to allow myself to be so stressed that I can't actually fully enjoy the free time I have after all that hard work. So, so it's just, it's important I guess family, like for me, it's just family is, is just the most important thing in my life.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (04:59):
Yeah. I, I think that's right. I think you can't get through law school without a community, whether that's your family, your friends, your new law school friends, colleagues. I think that that's been a huge part of, of my law school journey as well is, is leaning on my husband, who has been my rock and my biggest supporter throughout my law school journey, and my good friends and the friends that I've made in law school. And you definitely need a support system. I don't think anyone can get through, through law school alone. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. About your family.

John Enger (05:36):
So, Tiana, what does, what does your relationship look like with, with mental health and, and how do you deal with stress? And, and what are some things that make you happy? What, what, what helps you get through everything?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (05:49):
Yeah. my relationship with my mental health really started as a young child. So, you know, to go way back, you know, I, I have some trauma in my childhood. So I've been in therapy intermittently throughout my life. I went back to therapy after my experience serving as an ICU nurse throughout the Covid to 19 pandemic. That was really really took a toll on my mental health for sure. There was a lot of grief there, I think a lot of anxiety, you know, with people's lives hanging in the balance and, and families. And I think there was a lot of vicarious trauma that, that kind of seeped into me throughout that experience. So I started going back to therapy on a weekly basis throughout that experience, and then decided to go to law school. I was inspired by that experience.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (06:47):
Obviously it was incredibly challenging, but I was inspired by that experience to go back to law school. And unfortunately, I mean, I found that my mental health actually got worse throughout law school, especially leading into, well, my one l and especially my two L year, which we just wrapped up, I think as everybody says, the saying goes you know, the second year is the work you to death year. And I think, I think just looking at your face, your smile right now, I think we both really felt that we felt the work you to death here. But I think for me personally, like I really had some trouble with that imposter syndrome where you just feel like maybe you don't belong or, you know, what are you doing here? You're gonna have really challenging days throughout law school where you're asking yourself, why am I here <laugh>?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (07:33):
And I think with me coming from a nursing background and, you know, first generation graduate, well, you know, law school student I've, I've had moments where, you know, I'm in the room with such incredible, brilliant people and just kind of wondering, okay, like, am I supposed to be here? And I think, I think I've struggled with that a little bit. Imposter syndrome, I think I've struggled with grades, so grades have always been really important to me. And especially in law school, everybody says they're like the most important thing, you know, your GPA and your class rank and your grades. And I got my first B two L year, and I kind of, kind of lost it, but also kind of used that experience to, to grow and to kind of detach you know, my self-worth from an a on a report card.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (08:27):
So I've been kind of going through this journey of, of just letting go of grades and seeing more value in myself than just my academic achievements. And I think, if anything, I'm on the upswing. I think two L was really hard, two l was really challenging for my mental health. But I'm on the upswing now still doing weekly therapy, which I'm a huge advocate of mental health therapy, but talk therapy is also not for everybody. I do other things. I work out, exercise helps me especially with my anxiety. Yoga, yoga helps. And again, just leaning, just leaning on family and just blocking out time to spend quality time with your family and your partner and your friends. That's been super important for me too. So it's challenging. It's definitely challenging, and it's something that you have to work at. I'm sure every law student goes through some type of mental health challenge. And again, that's why we're doing what we're doing, is just trying to start the conversation and make everyone a little bit more comfortable just being open and talking about their mental health.

John Enger (09:39):
So I, I think you touched on something that is, is very important there that might've gotten lost in, in all the other great stuff that you said. But having activities outside of school and outside of work that kind of allow you to let yourself go and relax. And, and I know everyone has a time crunch, but for me, one of the things I noticed in law school is a lot of people put an emphasis on grades, obviously, and, and everyone does everything they can to get the best grades they can. And for a lot of people that looks like staying home working until 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night, studying and preparing for your next class. But I think one of the biggest things that's helped me get through law school and and be successful is not doing that grind every single day until midnight. I'm kind of have taken the philosophy that I would rather work 10 hours at a hundred percent capacity and then use those extra hours in my day to kind of recharge my mental health recharge my energy levels by doing an activity that gives fulfillment to me rather than just continuing to try to grind it out.

John Enger (11:01):
And, and I've found that those extra hours that you might throw in at the end of the day are going to make you way more tired, way more stressed out, way more anxious, and not have the same payoff. So I mean, there's, there's days where I'll wake up and, and I'll be working and I'll get home at six o'clock at night and, and I know I have other stuff on my plate, but rather than trying to stay up all night to get my stuff done, I take a break. I unwind for a second. That's one of the things, every time I come home from school, I immediately sit on my couch for 15 minutes. I set a timer on my phone and just put my phone away, put everything away, and just sit there and relax with my fiance and just unwind from the day and, and try to refocus on, on what I need to accomplish that day, what do I need to accomplish the next day.

John Enger (11:55):
But really just try to clear my mind of everything. It's kind of like a, a meditation in my own way. I know some people yeah, might do like a 15 minute meditation or yoga session and, and try to center themselves again, but for me, it's just being with my partner. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and, and just relaxing and, and decompressing before I get onto anything else. But I guess while I'm on that topic, and I had mentioned it earlier, is, is having something that gives you fulfillment in life is so important. Whether it's a hobby or an activity. For me, it's kind of season dependent. If it's in the summer, I try to fit nine holes of golf in if I can. And, and just walking the course and being outside in the sunlight and playing a game that's mentally challenging but also relaxing in some ways really, really helps me center myself.

John Enger (12:48):
And I feel like it enables me, like the next day I just feel recharged and ready to go, and I, I work more efficiently. And I, and I think I, I just have better work product, whether it's for work or for school. Mm-Hmm. I know some people they might like to read a book, a a fiction book, taking it away from, you know, reading a case brief or something like that. And, but having something that you enjoy and being able to take, even if it's like 60 minutes out of your day or 30 minutes outta your day just to unwind and do something that you enjoy. I feel like it really, for me at least, it, it makes me feel better. And I, I, I, it reduces my stress. It reduces my anxiety, and, and I just can relax. And so, I guess another thing in the, in the summertime I do is, is I have a garden at my house. Hmm. And so just going outside and even if it's pulling weeds, as ridiculous as that sounds in the garden, there's just something that I care about that takes me away from all the craziness in the world that when I'm finished, I'm like, all right, let's, let's go. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm ready to, to keep working. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But do you have anything in your life that you know, that you use to step away from stress and anxiety and, and work in school?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (14:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's pretty basic. I just really enjoy going on walks, <laugh> with my partner and our dogs. We have two golden retrievers. They're the best. We love our dogs. They're like our little fur children at this point in our lives. So just going for like an hour long walk, especially in the winter. We love to walk in the winter when it's cold in the snow, and the dogs really love the snow. So really just going for a walk, going to a one hour yoga class. I do like to read, although I've been really more into audio books lately since I've been commuting for work. Yeah, I mean, really just, and I have a garden too, so we, we don't really do many vegetables, but I like to plant flowers. So we have a flower garden, the summertime. And I really like to go outside and just pick fresh flowers in the morning. And again, like you said, just like weeding or going outside and just tending to the garden, it's very therapeutic and it just lets you kind of forget all the worries of the world really melt away, and it's just you picking your flowers in your garden. So I definitely appreciate that. I appreciate a garden. Do you guys grow like vegetables or flowers or,

John Enger (15:12):
Yes, I kind of a mix of every herb gardens. Oh, nice. Vegetables. every year I plant sunflowers. Oh. They grow like, like 10, 12 feet in the air, and it's just, it's really, it's really nice. Yeah.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (15:24):
Have you ever grown those, like reddish burst looking ones? Yeah, they're

John Enger (15:29):
Not, they're so pretty. Yeah. They're, they're like red and orange. Yes. Yeah. I do a mix of 'em. Yeah, those

Tatiana Norman-Webler (15:33):
Are my favorite. But

John Enger (15:34):
It's, it's really great. So, as most lawyers have probably heard in some CLE or probably when they were in law school lawyers have the highest levels of depression, anxiety, stress, loneliness substance abuse, every negative marker that you could measure, lawyers rank the highest in the legal professions. I think it's 28% of lawyers report having experienced depression in their lives. And I think that number is an underestimate because that's only taking into consideration people who have actually responded to those surveys. I think I think the suicide rate is like two and a half times the national average. And same thing with substance abuse rates. And I think one of the issues that we see in our legal profession is that we're not learning and we're not discussing about this problem enough early on. You know, people learn about this once they become attorneys.

John Enger (16:41):
And once they're already in the heat of the most stressful time of their life and, and the most anxious time of their life, I think there needs to be a movement to deal and, and teach people healthy ways to deal with stress, anxiety, and depression before they have, before they experience these extreme levels of stress, anxiety, and depression. And until we address that problem early on in a lawyer's career and, and I would say law school, but honestly, I feel like these are things that people should be discussing in college before people go out in the real world, is healthy ways to, to deal with this stuff. I remember funny enough when I was in elementary school and they had the I think it was called Play 60 or something, and it was a movement to, you know, get 60 minutes of exercise a day.

John Enger (17:38):
I, I really think there as society, we need to, I guess, create a culture where early on in our lives, we're teaching our children how to deal with stress and depression in a, in a healthy way. And, and some people might say that that's, you know, going to see a therapist or going to see a psychiatrist to get a prescription to help with a mental health disorder. But I, I'm more in the boat of finding holistic ways to deal with this stuff early on and, and not getting people on prescription, you know whether it be Zoloft or something to help you sleep or an antidepressant. I, I don't think that that is actually the best answer. I think that, you know, we should be teaching people to go outside and, and take a break when they feel depressed and they feel stressed out to get away from their phone, to get away from the TV to, and to go outside and, and, and think to themselves.

John Enger (18:40):
I, I, I think one of the things, you know, why I enjoy gardening so much is my mind is taken off of social media. It's taken off of work, it's taken off of school, and I'm just kind of sitting there doing really what's a mindless activity. And just thinking to myself and, and honestly, I think that's where my most creative ideas come from is when I'm not trying to think creatively, but I'm just doing something mindlessly and I think of ways and things that make me happy when I'm doing a mindless activity subconsciously. And, and kind of while we're on that note, Tatiana, I, I know that for you, you're not on any social media or anything, right? No. And, and could you talk a little bit about your purpose behind doing that?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (19:28):
Yeah, certainly. So I wanna say this was back in 2020, maybe even sooner. I think I deleted Facebook as early as 2019. I, especially Instagram. Instagram I think was particularly negative for my mental health. I found myself comparing myself to people, and I found myself not really living in the moment. You know, my husband and I love to cook, right? So I am finding myself, you know, documenting the entire thing, right? You know, and this is, you know, we're chopping these vegetables and this is what the final product looks like. And, and I felt like, you know, every moment of my life was becoming content, right? Like, something to post and something to show other people and to tell other people. And I also didn't like that, that I was so like, addicted to it, so addicted to my phone. And every time you get an Instagram notification or a Facebook notification I just had to check it, right?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (20:31):
And, and I feel like that's, it's a huge problem right now. Not just social media, but just we're, we're all kind of addicted to it. We're beholden to like this little electronic device. And I just didn't like that I was being so negatively impacted. And it's almost like this Pavlovian response that was like, trained in me, ding. You know, my phone dings and I look at it, you know, is it a, like from Instagram? Is it a message from Facebook? You know, what is it? And I just, I didn't like being beholden to social media, and I didn't like that, you know, doom scrolling on Instagram, and, you know, I just, when I deleted everything, I just had so much more time. I just, I didn't realize how much time I was spending out of my day. And, you know, iPhone has that, the screen utilization, right?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (21:18):
I mean, I would be up at like six, seven hours a day and I'm thinking like, what am I doing? This is what I'm doing for six or seven of seven hours a day. I am looking at my screen. Surely there's other things I can be doing. So it's, it's been incredible. I mean, I, I don't, I don't feel the need to, I just, I feel like I can live presently in the moment. I can just enjoy my life. And not everything is something that has to be captured in a photo or, or shared with someone. And if I'm really excited about something, I will send somebody a photo, right? I won't snapchat them because I don't have Snapchat, you know, I don't streak with people. I don't, you know, whatever the lingo is. But for me personally, it's, it's been very beneficial for my mental health.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (22:02):
And I, I think it can be really beneficial if for, I mean, you don't have to delete it, right? But just to take a break, right. To take a, a brief pause or, you know, I have a friend that usually gives up social media for Lent, and that's kind of like her, you know, cleanse from social media and to just reset. So, and my, my husband did that with me as well. So we, neither neither of us has any social media. And yeah, it's just, it's an amazing, it's an amazing way to live life. Although, I will say I'm on LinkedIn, so if anything, like LinkedIn is my equivalent to social media right now, but that's for professional purposes. <Laugh>,

John Enger (22:37):
It's funny that you talk about you know, some people taking a break from social media for Lent and the importance, even if you do have social media, actually taking a step away from it. For me, one of the things I, I should have mentioned this earlier, but I really enjoy going backpacking. Oh. And, and not like tent camping, but you know, hiking where there's no cell service and making your own food and sleeping in a hammock. And, and that for me is like my social reset. And I haven't been able to do that this year. As you, the two, all years is pretty hard. And, you know, taking 17 credit hours and working 20 hours a week, and, you know, it's, you have 60, 70 hour weeks consistently, it's, it's hard to find time for yourself. But, mm-hmm, <affirmative> I, I do plan on, on finding some time this summer to just, you know, go away for four days and, and honestly not talk to anyone and just be with myself and my thoughts and, and enjoy nature and just kind of step away from everything. It's, I think it's really important to have a reset, but

Tatiana Norman-Webler (23:39):
Wow, that sounds absolutely amazing. I would love to do that. My husband has done that before, so it was, I wanna say it was back in 20 20, 20 21, he went and hiked the Colorado Trail. He hiked, I wanna say about a fifth or a fourth of it. And then he had to come home for work, but he was out there for about 10 days. And that's, I mean, that's the experience that he had. It was, I mean, he had a satellite phone and he would text me, you know, I'm safe like every night. But he went out there with a couple buddies and like he just said, that experience for him was so transformative to just get away and be away from everything and kind of just dive into yourself and again, not be beholden to your phone because you're just out here in nature and you're hiking and you're just, you're enjoying it. And I really hope you get that time to do that this summer.

John Enger (24:22):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Really. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about why you think it's important to not only look out for one another in a com in the community and the legal community, but also in law school as a way to kind of check in on people? I know I had talked earlier about myself having a, a close familial network and support group. But you know, I know at at school there's, there's a lot of people that aren't from the local area that, that come to law school, or they moved to a different city because they got a job offer that they couldn't turn down and, and now they're not with their family in a, in a new place, in a high stress environment, you know, what are your recommendations for someone that moves away from their support group, that they've had their whole life for either finding a new support group or, or how to deal with stress, you know, if they're separated from, from their support network?

Tatiana Norman-Webler (25:19):
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know if I can necessarily speak to that myself, because I have not had that experience. I'm from Canton. I go to school in Akron. But I guess from some of my friends at school who, who are from out of state I think just, I dunno, just integrating yourself into the, the law school life. I mean, it's, it's three years. It's a big chunk of your life. And I think the best thing that you can do is to just make friends and, and be open to making friends. We, we need each other <laugh>. We need, we need each other throughout this process. And, and, you know, not just your study group, right? Not just those people. You know, don't be afraid to branch out and, and go to other, you know, clubs, events or, you know, play intramural sports.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (26:08):
I think just not being afraid to just branch out and I mean, we're all in this together, right? Like, we're all going through the same thing, you know, differently. We may be handling it differently, but we're all experiencing the same thing. So, and I think just the simple question of asking people like I've, I've checked in on some of my friends that are studying for the bar right now, just asking, how is your mental health? Like, I, I think that should be a normal question, not just how are you, right? Because, you know, people will say good <laugh> and just breeze right past it. I think, I think asking that pointed question, how is your mental health right now? I think that prompts a more honest, candid, open discussion and just lets that person know that, you know, you're in a safe space to just candidly speak about the fact that maybe you're having a horrible week and you just need to tell somebody and to just have somebody resonate with you and vibe with you on the crappy week that you're having.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (27:09):
And, and sometimes that's just it asking the how's your mental health question and, and just checking in on each other, you know, when you know somebody's having an incredibly difficult week or I don't know. And I mean, I guess to your point, you know, people who are maybe separated from their families and their friends, I mean, become that person's family and friend, right? Like, let them know that, you know, if they've left their home state to come to Ohio and to come to school here in Akron, Ohio, that they have a family and a community here so much so that they might wanna stay here after they graduate. Right? So I think law school is really an opportunity to build these lifelong bonds and relationships. And, and again, that starts by just really being there for people and, and asking those candid questions, right? Not, how are you, hi, how are you? But hey, like, how's your mental health? Like, how are you really doing this week? Are you okay? I think that's really important,

John Enger (28:07):
Kind of going off that point. I think that not just law students, but but also lawyers in the profession are afraid to be vulnerable. And they feel that talking about their own mental health, even with close friends, they're, they're afraid to talk about it. There's a stigma. There's a, they're worried that, you know, talking about if they did have a bad week, that it's gonna reflect poorly on 'em. I, and I think that kind as a society, we have an expectation of, you know, lawyers to be always like sharp and on the point and, and confident and, and successful in everything they do. But in reality, that's not the case. Pe everyone has a bad day, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think some people are afraid to admit it, or they're scared to, to talk about it, even with people that are close to him.

John Enger (28:57):
And I, and I think that we really need to have an effort to make it acceptable, to feel vulnerable and to open up about each other's mental health challenges. And if you are having a bad day, like I think we as a society need to make people feel comfortable talking about it. Because if you can't talk about the issues you're having, you're just alone with your thoughts. And I think that that brings that sense of loneliness back, right? When I think of a sense of loneliness, I think of just me and the world and, and everyone else is blocked out. You feel like you're the only one in your life and you can't talk. And, and I think that's loneliness stems from being afraid to be vulnerable and being afraid to be open. I think you can break down those barriers and, and you need a support network if you don't have your family.

John Enger (29:55):
I think, you know, building relationships with friends and coworkers, it's just so important in breaking down those barriers so you can have those conversations. I think if, if we did that, we as a community would feel less lonely. And, and at my experience at Akron, I mean, there's a group of of four friends that since like the second day of law school, I mean, on a daily basis, you know, we, we check out a study room and we can only check it out for three hours. So one of us checks it out and then the other checks it out. And we have this room throughout the entire day that when we have breaks from classes, we just go in there, even if we're working together, you know, just having a space that's kind of separated from everything else. And, and we just talk candidly and open with each other.

John Enger (30:43):
And we do ask those pointed questions of, you know, are you, are you feeling okay today? Like, how, how are you handling school? Especially when it comes to finals. I mean, there's some students that I've seen that just pull all night, or after all nighter studying for finals, and at the end of the day, and, and they're worried that they're not gonna be successful enough and they're not gonna do well on their paper and they feel like they need to study more. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's really bad for your mental health and, and your physical health to be staying up all night. It, it makes you more anxious and then you throw caffeine into the mix and, and it just really, it's, it's a recipe for a disaster, in my opinion. Yeah. I, I think that, that as a school, and you probably agree with this too we really should be kind of fostering a culture where, you know, people are family there.

John Enger (31:38):
I don't know, at, at Akron, I feel like it's family. It almost feels like high school to be honest with you. But at least in my small group, those are some of the closest friends I've ever made in my life. I mean, and the rest of my friends are all kids that I went to kindergarten with. But I feel just as close as, as I do with my kindergarten friends, as I do with the friends that I met in law school. 'cause We really care about each other. And, and like I said, family, having a support group with your family is super important. But the support group that I have with my friends, it's like we're going through a common struggle. Like, and, and I think that's why I like Akron so much is it's a super competitive place, but at the end of the day, everyone really cares about each other.

John Enger (32:23):
They're like, we're all in the same boat together. We all want to be successful attorneys, and we all have a goal of passing the bar. I mean, everyone cares about different things in different ways. Some people might care about the grades, the job that they get, but for me, and, and I think a lot of, of students at Akron, it's, hey, like, let's get through this, make it through the, up to this point, the toughest time of our lives. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it's gonna continue to get more difficult, you know, as we pass the bar and become practicing attorneys. But I don't know, I just, having friends and family, I think for me is like the central theme of, of my journey, of, of positive mental health and awareness. Yeah. 

Tatiana Norman-Webler (33:05):
Yeah, you definitely need, you need a support system. I think to that note, you know, you, we were talking about, you know, maybe people that come from out of state and, you know, they don't have their family or they don't have their support network. I think that's one thing that we're really trying to do, you know, at Akron, to speak to your point about, you know, building a culture of, of wellness and caring for each other's mental health and having vulnerable open discussions. That's one thing that John and I have been trying to do at the University of Akron with our wellness steering committee at the law school. That was kind of, you know, something that we just want, we wanted something more formal. During my time as president of the Health Law Society, I wanted to do something called Wellness Wednesday, where we brought in, you know, therapy dogs and cookies and just had bottled water and things that were available for students when they needed them during peak stress times, like finals week, midterms week, whatever.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (34:01):
But through that, it's turned into this really exciting we call it the well steering committee that we're both on. And we're so excited to be a part of it that is really working towards building a culture of wellness at the University of Akron School of Law. And, and we have a mission statement and, and we're figuring out exactly. So this summer we're actually figuring out exactly what that's gonna look like, building a culture of wellness at, at Akron Law. But I think, I think what that really means is that first and foremost, we want people to feel like they have a community there. Like they have people that they can lean on, you know, colleagues, friends, study groups professors, administration, you know, professional mental health services. We want the student body to feel supported and we don't want anybody to feel like they're going through law school alone.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (34:47):
So I think just really building that community is, is gonna be super important and making sure that we make everyone feel like it's okay to be vulnerable. Like it's okay to have the mental health discussion. And I think that starting that conversation in law school before you graduate is super important because you'll take that with you into the legal profession, hopefully, and you'll go into the legal profession and be a practicing attorney with maybe some, some coping skills or some strategies or things that you've learned from colleagues or, or through your experience in law school that you can take with you and kind of work towards chiseling away that stigma, you know in the legal profession that, you know, you have to be perfect and you just, you know, you have to be on it, right? But attorneys are humans too, and everybody's going through it and everybody has bad days. I, John, I forget what your initial question was, but that's, that's my whole point, is just circling back to, to building community so that nobody ever feels like they're alone. And you know, you said that you really lean on your friends and family and, and there's people in law school that may not be able to lean on their friends and family for whatever reason. So I think building that community at Akron Law is, is what the priority is with our wellness efforts.

John Enger (36:08):
And, and I think one more thing to note about the, the well steering committee, is that right? The attorneys that have been practicing for years and years, and the partners of these firms, they didn't have that conversation when they were in law school, and they never had learned ways to cope with stress in law school. And they just learned by doing. But I think one of the things that we're gonna be able to accomplish with this wall steering committee is that we want to train the next generation of lawyers to learn how to deal with stress. Because I think that a healthy, happy attorney is going to be way more successful than someone who is suffering from depression and anxiety and loneliness. And I think coming together as a community and, and having the support of bar associations and local law firms, and having, having their support in, in this joint effort in, in educating students about mental health and wellness and law school, I think we can really improve the quality of service and the legal profession as a whole. And I'm, I'm just really hoping that, you know, the bar associations and, and these law firms start to realize that by fostering a culture of mental health and wellness, productivity levels can go up happiness can go up and, and I think it, we're just gonna see great improvements in the legal profession. I'm, I'm so excited to be a part of this

Tatiana Norman-Webler (37:36):
<Laugh>. Yeah, I mean, for any law student out there listening to this, I just want to say, you are doing a great job. You are right where you belong. You are absolutely killing it. You're doing law school, you're doing it, and you're doing it well, and you deserve to be here. You belong here and you have a community and you're not alone. Okay, John, I have to ask just one more question. Can you tell me about being the pickleball champion?

John Enger (38:01):
So, for me, and I, I probably should have brought this up earlier, but pickleball has been one of the greatest things that I have ever discovered in my life. Kind of part of that mental health journey was, you know, growing up I was overweight and teased and made fun of. And I saw, I used to be a football player, I suffered injuries and I, I couldn't get active the way I wanted to, and I learned about pickleball and I, I lost over a hundred pounds playing pickleball. And it really changed my life. And, and I've met so many successful people and, and there's so many stories about it. And, and now one of the things that I've been really trying to push along with the CNBA is, is using pickleball as a networking event. I, I think that physical health translates into mental health.

John Enger (38:52):
And on top of that, having an activity that's a social activity. You know, you're, you're going out with your colleagues or your friends playing something that's competitive, so you still have that mental stimulation, you have physical stimulation and you're also getting the social aspect of it. It's just pickleball is just one of the greatest things. I think around right now, and, and actually on that the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association just had where our first ever inaugural pickleball tournament at the Wembley Club in Chagrin Falls. And it was just a massive success. Like we had 26 participants, judges, attorneys, partners of law firms, and even people that have never played the sport before, but had the courage to try and learn for the first time. And, you know, their first time on the court was playing in this event. And and it's just, it was such a massive success that, that after it, every single person there was asking us, alright, when's the next one?

John Enger (39:53):
Like, we need to set this up right away. We need to get more courts. There's more people that are gonna wanna play. And, and a common theme was, oh, I have to wait till I tell my friends about this. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna need the whole venue next year. And, and one of the best things I'll say this is judge John Russo I wanted to give him a shout out. He was he's a great pickleball player and he was having a, a great time there. So if you're, if you're listening we enjoyed having you there, but we're looking forward to incorporate pickleball as well, more into CMBA.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (40:29):
That sounds like so much fun. Thank you so much. 

John Enger (40:32):
Yeah, and, and I guess lastly, I just wanted to thank the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association for having us out to have this candid discussion. I, I think opportunities like this are, are just so important. And in any way that anyone listening to this can bring up the mental health conversation, we can really just improve, I don't know, improve your happiness individually and as a community. I, I just think it's so important to have these discussions.

Tatiana Norman-Webler (41:03):
Yeah. Well, it's been really nice having this discussion with you, John. And again, I I second what you said, I mean, thank you to the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Thank you to Matt Besser for kind of making this, you know, his mission as President-elect of the CNBA. This is this is really exciting. And, you know, again, like he said, like you said, it's all about just starting the conversation and, and being okay with having the conversation just openly and candidly with each other. So thank you. I really appreciate this time with you.

Kari Burns (41:32):
Thank you for, for listening to another My Bar story. We truly are all in it together. Would you be comfortable sharing your own stories, like the ones we just heard? Visit c metro bar.org/mental health and sign up. We'll see you soon with another Bar Story.