My BarStory S02E02 - Ellen Hobbs Hirshman and Meghan P. Connolly

Our second season of My BarStory podcasts continues on Sunday at Noon with the release of our session with Ellen Hobbs Hirshman and Meghan P. Connolly from Lowe Scott Fisher. These two attorneys work together, but launched their careers in very different ways. Not everyone is born with a passion for the law, sometimes the career finds them! It's a wonderful discussion about mentorship, about finding your path, and about women continuing to fight for change.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, I'm Becky Rupert McMahon, CEO of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Welcome to a new year and to a new season of my Bar Story podcast. We began this project to create an oral history of the bar for our 150th birthday in 2023. The response has been tremendous. We've got many more great bar stories to share this year and beyond. So let's get started with another my bar story.

Meghan Connolly (00:33):
My name is Megan Connolly, and I'm from the law firm of Loeb, Scott Fisher. I've been at my firm for about 10 years as an attorney. We do a hundred percent injury work. The, the range in what we handle is anything from a car accident case, a medical malpractice case, products liability. Certainly our firm has a reputation nationally for handling auto products liability, but we do so much more than that, and I've been really blessed to land at my firm and stay at my firm because it's connected me with wonderful lawyers and great opportunities to practice in an area that I have grown to truly love. I went to Cleveland Marshall and I have been a member of the CMBA since day one. I live in Bainbridge with my husband and our four little boys who are all under the age of eight. Hi

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (01:25):
Ellen. I'm, I'm Ellen Hobbs Hirschman. And I have also been a member of the CMBA and all its predecessors, <laugh>, since I've been practicing law for over 41 years. And I work with Megan and the other great lawyers at Low Scott Fisher. Megan and I actually worked together years ago at another firm for about a year and back in 2012, and that's how we met. I just started working with Low Scott Fisher this past year, and I'm very happy to be working with her again and all the other lawyers and staff at Low Scott Fisher.

Meghan Connolly (01:57):
So Ellen, I wanted to talk this morning about how influential that one year was for me, and I think I've grown to appreciate that even more now that we're working together again, Ellen is so organized and I, I don't think that law schools or training at your law firm really touch on that, but it's such a powerful skill to manage your docket, make sure nothing's falling through the cracks. So those organizational skills that you're the best at really helped me as a new lawyer so much in combination with your fearlessness and your skill. So I, you were just such a great impression on me, and I think that you've been a mentor to say the least.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (02:38):
Well, thank you, Megan. And it's funny because I've always been an organized person, but someone by best trial and discovery organizational skills, I should say case organizational skills came because back when I had been a lawyer one year, and I remember I, I came home on a Sunday from a trip to Hawaii, and the lawyer I was working with at the time called me up on that Sunday and said, you have to try a case tomorrow. He had not worked up the case, did not know anything about the case. Went into the courtroom against, at the time, one of the best defense medical mal practice attorneys in Cleveland. And throughout that trial, I learned why you're supposed to supplement your discovery responses why you're supposed to identify witnesses in advance of trial why you're supposed to hand over exhibits and documents. Because all throughout that trial, as I plotted my way through, I repeatedly heard the judge say, well, you failed to identify this witness. You failed to hand hand over this exhibit. I learned that that would never happen to me again. Or, or vowed it would never happen again.

Meghan Connolly (03:45):
They call that trial by fire, right?

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (03:47):
Yeah. Yeah, right. <Laugh>, it is definitely a stormy, a stormy week in the courtroom for sure.

Meghan Connolly (03:53):
So have you handled the cases through the lawyer referral service?

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (03:57):
You know, early on in my practice I did. When I had my own, my own plaintiff's practice, I left the defense firm to do plaintiff's work. And I did join all the referral practices.

Meghan Connolly (04:08):
Our firm has, has done pretty well with them, especially on premises liability cases, and certainly, you know, some auto cases as well. I don't think Katie Anders is here anymore, but she was in charge of that service for many years and she partnered with our firm pretty closely to help improve the system. And when you compare the different Bar Association referral services, Cleveland's doing a great job for sure. And I remember her saying, you know, it's important to her that even if it's not a case, that person needs to have a positive experience with a lawyer. So that's always in my mind when I take those calls, even when they're not a case, I take the time not too much time, but a little bit of time to make sure that the, the interaction is positive and hopefully they, I can shed some light on why it's not something we can help them with.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (04:54):
That's a great point, Megan, because I, I failed to point out that I don't do, in general, I don't do a lot of MVA ca cases or products cases, mostly medical negligence cases. But I also agree that even when I would get those calls, the referrals from the Bar Association, I always took the time to talk to someone. And I think we do that in our, to this day with any referral that comes to us and we explain why we are turning down the case with, for me, usually in a medical case, it's because at the end of the day, it's not gonna be enough, have enough value and the client is gonna end up with less than me, which I, I, I won't take that type of case, but I, I think that's real important nowadays to really, and always has been, I should say to really explain to someone why you're rejecting their case and give them the name if you can, if someone else who will talk to them about the case. And in fact, I still refer people to the Bar Association though, if they want want to talk to another lawyer.

Meghan Connolly (05:54):
It is a great service. They provide,

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (05:55):
You know, Megan, people often ask me what changes have occurred over my career in the practice of law. And I just chuckle because back in the old days, I, I started out as a law clerk. I'd have to go down to the courthouse, pull out these big books, which each case was defined and decide if we got service on the case, see if someone responded to a motion, if there was an order by the court. I mean, when we did research, we had to go to a physical law library, pull books off the shelf, then we had to go shepherd eyes the case to make sure it hadn't been overturned or readjusted by another court. Computers and the internet have really, really changed. And that to me, I started using a computer in my practice in 1994 when I set up my own law firm.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (06:46):
And that was a hu made a huge difference. And that was someone who didn't even know how to type, you know, <laugh>. But I mean, to me, computers and the internet, and not only that, but social media I'm, I'm most impressed with how, how at Low Scott Fisher, we, I, I wouldn't even say it's advertising, it's just presenting ourselves out to the public so they understand, you know, we are here really to help you and we can help you. Sometimes we can't, but we'll help explain why what happened to you happened to you. But I just think those changes really improve the practice of law. I think p makes people more efficient, and I think it helps us better serve the community of people that need our help.

Meghan Connolly (07:26):
I think, you know, when I was working with you in 2012, there wasn't a whole lot of e-filing yet, and there were some counties that had documents imaged, but most of them weren't doing that yet. And now almost everybody, at least in the counties that were in a lot, are doing that, which makes life so much easier. And I can't imagine just spending the time. I used to go down to the medical library sometimes early on, and now, you know, we don't have to do that anymore. So even in my 10 years, I think that technology continues to make things easier and, and makes our practice more efficient. I also think, you know, as a woman in the law, I have experiences and can kind of tell my stories about, especially in the plaintiff's world where it's very male dominated, you know, experiences I've had that I felt were, because I was a woman. But I can only imagine, you know, you go back decades before I graduated from law school, and it could only have been worse, but in May when we tried a case together, we were a courtroom full of women. Right,

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (08:32):
Right. On both sides.

Meghan Connolly (08:33):
On both sides. And I wonder, have you had that experience before where it was an all female cast of attorneys in a trial?

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (08:42):
So that's funny because I, back when I did defense work and I defended healthcare providers, I did have a trial and it was with, and I'm sorry I don't remember her new married name, Jane Rua from Monte Leon's office. We had all, it was all female attorneys in the courtroom. So that was just one time. I remember, I remember Judge Carroll, you probably don't know who Judge Carroll was the judge, but you're, you're right. And although some people may say it's cliche, when I started practice as an attorney in 1982, there weren't, I don't know if there was any female judges at the time. I remember I won't say the judge's name, who's deceased now, looked at me one day in the elevator and said, who let you out of high school for the day? <Laugh>? And I just chuckled, you know, or showing up at depositions or even court into the courtroom with a big trial case and someone saying, are you the court reporter? You know, quite frankly, I still get that once in a while. I

Meghan Connolly (09:38):
Do too. I've gotten that a couple times.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (09:41):
And, you know, that stuff never bothered me, maybe 'cause I am thick skinned and I, I'd loved someone not ask me if I just was let outta high school <laugh> <laugh>.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (09:52):
But I think women have come a long way. And I think there are a lot of trial attorneys. We both know very effective trial attorneys. And I think we do bring something to the table that, that sometimes your average man probably doesn't have. I I don't wanna offend anyone out there, but <laugh>, I think what we bring to the table and not, and I'll be honest with you, back in the eighties, there weren't a lot of men. I knew that their wife was also working. And of course there were some. But I think we're, we're juggling in our relationships being our roles, I should say our role as, as a wife or significant other mother, friend and attorney. We juggle those. And I, and I think probably, I would tell you my best accomplishment as an attorney has been my ability to do, do that as I perceive quite effectively because, and my husband is also an attorney and we practiced together for many years and he's probably someone who I highly respect.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (10:51):
I still ask him for advice and he can cite you the case number and the statute number, which I love. You know, I I, I always had a partner though that was also in the law. And if I had to take a deposition and I, but I had some, one of the kids needed, needed something, they say, Hey, can you go to California next Thursday and cover this deposition? 'cause I have to help Noah study for a test or something like that. Yeah. Being a woman in the law, it, it, it, it was tougher, I think 40 years ago. I think we're well situated.

Meghan Connolly (11:20):
I do have to say that having you as an example and other women that we know well as examples of what that looks like for a woman, for a mother to be a trial lawyer and have all of those demands on her, and to do it successfully, it's very, it has been really important for me to have those examples. There are certainly moments when I thought, I'm not gonna be able to do this anymore. The overwhelm is too much. And really all it takes is to reflect on the women that have done it or who have done it and stay on the path that they took.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (11:54):
And I'll be honest with you, I mean, over the last 20 years, I think the father in the home plays a more significant role in raising, rearing their child more than maybe when I was growing up. You know, and, and, and there are all the men, male lawyers I know they really play in significant role in raising their children and, and participating. So I think I think we've advanced in that regard. I mean, I've, I've loved being an attorney. I'm wondering, why did you become an attorney?

Meghan Connolly (12:23):
Really, the honest answer is by default, I came out of college in 2008, which was not a great year for the economy, <laugh>. And I remember interviewing, I interviewed to be a security guard Oh wow. For $9 an hour and I didn't get the job. And I interviewed for other, the only job I could get was going from business to business, asking if I could review their phone bill for them. That's how bad it was. Is that a job? It's a job kind of <laugh>. So I talked with my parents and decided to take the LSAT and go back to school like everybody else did in that time. But, you know, it's like anything else in life where you don't really know if you're gonna love what you think you're gonna love until you're immersed in it. So I got into law school and started at Marshall and the first two weeks were rough, but after that, I felt like I had found my, my path. And it's tough, but it was something that I really enjoyed and it's something that I felt suited for. And then when you start working at a law firm and in your practice, it's a totally different world. And again, I fell into it. I got lucky, really, and had the privilege of, you know, being able to do it at the time that I couldn't really get a job.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (13:42):
Well, I'll say it wasn't just luck, you had skill. 'cause I worked with you, so you may have stepped into someone else's shoes, but you would've kept going out the door if you didn't have the skillset you do. 'cause You're, you're a very talented attorney. You know, it's funny, we've never talked about this issue before about why we got into law, but I fell into it as well. I mean, I was graduating from undergrad and I talked to a friend of mine, he was five years older than me, and I said, I'm, I'm gonna go become a social worker, so I think I'll go get my MSW. And he said, oh, don't do that. He goes, Ellen, I could see you becoming a social worker a couple years into it. You're gonna be so, so disillusioned. You thought you're gonna change the world.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (14:17):
He goes, just go get a law degree. You'll have you so many more things you can do with a law degree. I said, okay, I'll go to law school. And I'll tell you the only reason I kept going to school is because I have a brother that's older who told me to keep going to school as long as I can. 'cause The real world really sucks. <Laugh> <laugh> good advice. But, and I was good at school, so I just kept going. And then I'd had this, this small group torts class that was taught by a a, a real well-known lawyer in town. And I just fell in love with torts. And I'll tell you, one of the things that really impressed me was how much more ready for law school and the practice of law the night students were at. I also went to Marshall at now Cleveland State University law.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (14:59):
I was so impressed because I mean, I remember taking commercial paper and I thought, what, what's commercial law? You know, I, I was a 22-year-old girl. I didn't really, and then once I got into, I realized what it was, but I hadn't really lived in the world. I went from college to law school and I really had a respect for the people working full-time going to night school. These people already had jobs. I mean out, they're out in the world and they understood life. You know, I just knew it from the perspective of, you know, 22-year-old college grad. I, I'm, I'm glad I did go to law school. I did, I did kind of fall into it as well. And there are times I, and I've had different, I've been in different types of practices as well. I've done both plaintiffs and defense work, which I'm very grateful for. I, I, I think I wound up in the right spot.

Meghan Connolly (15:40):
Yeah, I feel the same way. And I do think that that kind of difficult time for me before I went into law school where I was at a crossroads of, you know, they don't have a lot of options here, <laugh>. It kind of planted in me this grateful attitude where I'm so grateful to have been able to go to law school, so grateful for my job that it, you know, that really gets me through when the job is sometimes thankless, sometimes we lose. And that's hard to swallow. But that, that kind of reflecting on how grateful I am for the opportunities that we have as lawyers to help people and influence their lives in a positive way. It kind of gets me through the, the bumps in the road. Is there a lawyer that stands out to you as the most influential of your career? You

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (16:26):
Know, I've worked with all sorts of lawyers. Like I said, I've done both plaintiffs and defense work. I think if I'm gonna talk about someone that's probably most influenced my career, it wouldn't be an attorney. I think I'd say my father, quite frankly, because my father taught me from a young age, always, always be yourself, which probably annoys a lot of people. <Laugh> when I am myself. 'cause I'm very outspoken and be honest. Taught me to accept responsibility when you're, admit when you're wrong and take responsibility. And I think that served, that has served me really well. Being an attorney. I remember when I worked at the big defense firm, defending doctors there was a partner I worked with. He got really mad at me one day. He said, I did something wrong. And I looked at him and said, yeah, you're right.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (17:11):
You know, I, I should have done that and thank you for telling me whatever. And then he goes, no, you're making me even madder. 'cause I can't even get off at you. I don't know if I can say that word, but <laugh> and I, and I just, 'cause it's all part of moving forward and becoming a better person, you know, just taking responsibility moving forward. And that all came from my father. He really instilled. And I'm sure my mother did to some extent, but I just remember my, that being really important to my father. How about you? Is there one attorney who really has inspired you?

Meghan Connolly (17:39):
I mean, you, <laugh> you certainly have, and I think I've already kind of touched on that, but the lawyers at my firm have been amazing. I mean, James Lowe is a nationally recognized lawyer who even as a law clerk, showed me so much respect. He's a man that, you know, he's brilliant and skilled, but so down to earth in a way that not many people can achieve. And I think that his attention, for lack of a better word, was really informative for me early on. It made me feel like I deserved a seat at the table. Even if I'm a first year lawyer, a second year lawyer, I can take that deposition or go on that trip and I don't have to question whether I belong there because James thinks it's important that I do it. So he validated, you know, my skills early on, which is important I think, for new lawyers. And all the lawyers at my firm have been mentors to me in their own ways. But again, I think that as a, as a woman lawyer, to have a strong female lawyer who can come in and try a case with you, you, you've been that for me all along. We haven't worked together every year that I've been in practice, but I've always had you to call and bounce things off of and navigate things with. So you've been very influential to me, probably more than you realize.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (18:57):
Well, that's very nice. I'm gonna tag on that thought about how we pass it forward. I I think you do that by pulling up the people below your, I should say younger than you. And for example, when I became was when I became president of the Cleveland Academy of Trial Attorneys, I was, I thought, oh, we have to get some young people on this board. And I remember appointing you and, and Dana Paris on to be board members a ca and I kept telling everyone on the board, I said, look at us, look around the room. You know, there were women on the board and there were men on the, we were all older. I said, we need these young people really know what they're doing. They're, they're, they're videotaping themselves and putting it on their websites. And, you know, it's all very foreign to me.

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (19:38):
And I just think we always have to look behind us and say, wow, look at all this young talent and all, all this great burst of ideas as a community of attorneys, especially in the plaintiff's Barbara, plaintiff's attorneys. I think there's a great outreach to everyone in all skill sets and all different areas of practices, and we all try to help each other out. And that, that's what a bar association like CNBA does. It provides you with a resource where you can come together have a wonderful exchange of ideas with talented bright people of all different backgrounds and skill sets, and provide us with opportunities to learn not only new approaches to how we handle our cases, but also learn about new laws or new courtroom techniques or discovery techniques. And, you know, we're lucky to have organizations like this.

Meghan Connolly (20:32):
Absolutely. I agree. And it's amazing how much one idea or one connection can influence a case or even your career. We've all had those light bulb moments where we're like, how did I not think of that until right now? And it really helps shape the entire case and its success. So

Ellen Hobbs Hirshman (20:49):
Right. Especially if it's, if you, you're a sole practitioner or have a practice with only a coup one or two lawyers in your firm, it's always, unless you have Toby Hirshman, he's like, I can ask him anything. <Laugh>, he's, he always has great feedback. They're just great resources and I think more people need to take advantage of those resources.

Meghan Connolly (21:06):
Yeah. There's so much value in connecting with other lawyers.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Thank you for joining us for another My Bar story. You can still sign up to record your own bar story@cmetrobar.org slash podcast. Watch your podcast feed for a new episode coming soon. Have a great week.