My BarStory - 52 - Judge Joseph Burke, Judge Anne C. McDonough, and Judge Bridget M. O'Brien

This week's My BarStory podcast demonstrates the power of CMBA's Leadership Academy. Three leadership academy graduates are now judges. Judge Bridget M. O'Brien is a newly elected judge for the Cleveland Municipal Court. Judge Joseph Burke was elected to the bench in Rocky River Municipal Court, and Judge Anne C. McDonough begins her second term with the Cuyahoga County Court of Common Pleas, Juvenile Division.

Hear the lessons they learned on the campaign trail.

Transcript

Becky Ruppert McMahon (00:05):
Hi, I am Becky Rupert McMahon, chief Executive at the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Welcome to another edition of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association's, my Bar story. Throughout 2023, the CMBA will be hosting a series of podcasts that have created a living legacy in honor of our 150th anniversary. We'll be bringing you stories from the women and men within our bar membership who have truly made bar history. Now let's get started with another bar story.

Bridget O'Brien (00:36):
Good morning, I'm Bridgette O'Brien. I am currently the Deputy Court Administrator at the Eighth District Court of Appeals, and I am proud to share that I am a newly elected judge to the Cleveland Municipal Court. My term will start January 3rd, 2024.

Joe Burke (00:54):
Good morning. I'm Joe Burke and I am excited. I'm a judge elect just elected to the Rock River Municipal Court. My term will start on January 1st.

Anne McDonough (01:04):
And I am Anne McDonough. I am a judge. But I just started this year starting January 1st with Cuyahoga County Juvenile Court and also a leadership Academy graduate.

Bridget O'Brien (01:16):
Excellent. When Melanie reached out and asked if we wanted to participate in this podcast, I was thrilled to see both of your names on the chain. 'cause I was thinking, okay, this will be a little less intimidating having, you know, a group discussion. The only other time I've been in the studio here at the CBA was following Judge for yourself. The Bar Association did a great job of offering the candidates the opportunity to be interviewed. The bar was in incredibly patient during that process. 'cause I think I might've taken no less than like 10 takes to get my final video done. I was thrilled because truly I can genuinely say the Leadership Academy prepared me more so than probably any training I've had in recent years and gave me the confidence. When I did decide to run for Judge, I, I did have the benefit of having Judge McDonough at the time.

Bridget O'Brien (02:08):
She was in my class, but she was running for judge at the juvenile court. And I just remember at the time thinking like, how is she doing this? She <laugh>, she's running a campaign, she's working full time, she's a mom and she's still coming here every day smiling <laugh> and is very aside from the like, excellent programming that the Leadership Academy offered, and I would be a huge proponent and I recommend it to everyone if they have the opportunity to do it. Not only will it improve their performance at their workplace, but just open their eyes to opportunities beyond that. The quality of education is excellent, but most importantly, I thought the networking, Joe, I didn't have the benefit of knowing you at the time, but I, part of when I decided to run, one of the people I reached out to is no other than Judge McDonough <laugh>,

Anne McDonough (03:00):
Which I was really happy that you did. And I think the Leadership Academy, I maybe even subconsciously like presented itself when I was ready for to, to do it. And I do think that it helped me when my race came up. It was an unexpected opening and I had already started the Leadership Academy. And honestly, what one of the things, it improved, I believe it helped me in many ways and improved my performance at work. I think it had built the confidence in myself to try to run and to put myself out there. And I think now, even as a boss, I use it now to try to build up, I have a law student who works with me and to try to realize what's important to try to build up other leaders and encourage them. But there is one particular session that I do remember, it really was in my head when I made the decision to run and balance all of those ball in my head was there was a panel that Melanie put together and I remember it was Kevin, Kelly, Becky and somebody else, judge

Bridget O'Brien (04:01):
Early

Anne McDonough (04:02):
Yes, judge early, yes, <laugh> and it, they were very honest and that wasn't what I felt about A lot of the panels and the networking that we have at the Leadership Academy was really honest feedback about balancing sometimes your personal life and your professional life. Becky gave a very honest answer that is still in my head today. You have to keep all the balls in the air and that, but maybe sometimes you're, you're never really doing everything perfectly and sometimes it's gonna be more you're giving to your professional, sometimes personal. It was just very honest and it made me believe that I could still be a good mom and pursue my professional dreams.

Joe Burke (04:36):
Well I am a leadership academy grad too, and what I found the most rewarding is that I was surrounded by really exceptional attorneys. And some of them were newly minted, but they were it was, I learned things, which is incredible. So that was the number one thing is it was an impressive group. You know, we did a group project, I learned from them. There's things that I learned and, and that's, it's a good thing. But I will say this is that I have to give a shout out to Melanie, to Becky and to Carrie because, you know, I've been a member of the Cleveland Bar before the name change, but I distinctly remember during Covid, the CNBA just changed the narrative and that's when you started seeing the, the bar one CLEs and really stepped up their game and it's tremendous and really got on my radar. And then I saw the leadership academy. I'm like, wow, this sounds like interesting. So I, I give a lot of credit to this team here.

Bridget O'Brien (05:40):
Actually, one of the presentations that, and I don't know if they do this every year, I don't know if you're had this Joe, but Becky led it and it was on design thinking. Yeah. Oh, it, it's excellent. And really that the idea that the four step or five steps that they had us apply for purposes of our group project, it helped me for purposes of my campaign. So when I ultimately made the decision to run or was exploring the option I reached out with to certain people that I know that have done this before and have helped other people and just kind of wanted to get an idea of what will this entail. The one person, the first person I sat down with, she was telling me, you know, this is what you're gonna need to do. And a lot of what she was saying to me was, are you kidding me?

Bridget O'Brien (06:27):
Like that really works like mailers, like <laugh>, you know, doesn't everyone hate getting mailers? And it's like, no, that's really gonna be important for your campaign, so that means you have to raise the money ahead of time. So a lot, it made me like listen and kind of challenge like a lot of the assumptions that I had, which to me, that was a lot. What I took away from the design thinking program is that like, when you have the problem, you have to kind of first realize like, what are all the assumptions you're going into? But is that really what the, you know, the other people that you're trying to reach and, you know, resolve the problem is, is are they, are, are those assumptions correct? And so for me, a lot of what I thought would, what a campaign would look like was really so different than it actually was at the end of the day.

Bridget O'Brien (07:14):
So that's just one example of one course and I'm glad to hear that you offer that every year because I, I just really think, and it was very helpful for purposes of our actual project. And then the other one I really loved had to do with communication and conflict resolution. And I think for when I went before Judge for yourself, I really relied, I mean those were communication as a skill. I always that's one of my strengths, but you can always get better. And a lot of communication was just listening and I think it was jar Green. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. It was just excellent on, you know, how to be a more effective listener, which helps you to be more effective in getting your message across.

Anne McDonough (07:59):
Another of my favorite 'cause now I'm going back through, I mean it's been a couple years going back through what are my favorite things and things that I still use today. And I think especially even taking the bench, I have a staff of, I'm gonna say like nine people besides myself. I had a couple direct reports when I was in the legal department, but this is a different experience and I remember the, the emotional intelligence. Yeah. One, I loved that one. And listening even because you start to pick up everybody else's personalities, hearing how other people's profiles turned out, we got basically a 30 page report on our personalities. The

Speaker 5 (08:38):
Personality test. Yes. Oh yeah. Spot on, wasn't it? Yeah,

Anne McDonough (08:41):
It was absolutely spot on. I remember giving it to my mom and my boss at the time and they were both like, Uhhuh, that isn't exactly right and if your mom thinks it's right, then I think I keep that and I try to be cognizant of how my communication, 'cause that has helped me with communication to like my bailiff and to the magistrates I work with because I know I have it written what my strengths and weaknesses are in that area. And I try to be cognizant of knowing what I know now about how other people communicate too. It's helped me, I think, communicate more effectively with my staff.

Bridget O'Brien (09:17):
Did you ask your staff staff to take the test <laugh>?

Anne McDonough (09:20):
No, but I should <laugh> I think I could, and I probably should give them all a copy of mine too.

Bridget O'Brien (09:26):
<Laugh>, I was nervous. So Erin O'Toole, who's the court administrator at the eighth district too, she had the benefit. Yes. I think she was in your She was, she spoke very highly of you. She immediately knew when that session was coming up and she's like, oh, I wanna see your result. I was like nervous to give it to her. And she's like, oh, it's exactly what I, exactly what you're saying. She's like, I could've written this for you. Like,

Joe Burke (09:49):
Yeah, I think it's a great tool for attorneys to recognize their strengths and their traits and maybe get into the line of work that is consistent with that. So, I mean, for me, I was like, yeah, yeah. And those are my weaknesses. I know those. So that was and was truly remarkable actually. And I still have it. I mean, I have it in my drawer and I pull it out every now and again.

Bridget O'Brien (10:13):
I like what you said though about how through the leadership academy, aside from the planned programming that you offered, but like how much we had the opportunity to learn from the other attorneys and the groups. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and it, it's divided into the more seasoned and established and emerging. Well, and I feel like I learned just as much from the emerging right as I did from the established and just the, the different perspectives. I don't know if we talked about it just informally in our group, like what pet peeves and how the generational differences can be. So in, in the, the manner of communication too. You know, there were some people in my group that just wanted everything to be done remotely. And I am, can we meet in person <laugh>? You know, so in my group, I, I don't know if you two had this, but we had, you know, big firms, but then we also had the court, right. We had non-profit. So it was a really diverse perspective.

Anne McDonough (11:10):
I was gonna echo that too, that beyond the established and emerging, I think everybody from all walks of the legal field, which I think is helpful because I think when we work more in the government sector or you and I do and you had a private practice, but being exposed to different areas of the law, I think it's good for everybody.

Joe Burke (11:31):
Attorneys that you otherwise would not probably interact with. Yeah. Unless you go to a CE or something.

Bridget O'Brien (11:35):
Now were you during COVD? So were you meeting remotely mainly?

Joe Burke (11:40):
Yeah, we were remotely. Okay. You started it was the Brady Bunch. Yeah,

Bridget O'Brien (11:44):
<Laugh>

Joe Burke (11:44):
<Laugh>. It was the Brady Bunch screen.

Bridget O'Brien (11:46):
Joe and I go to judges' school next week and at the Ohio Supreme Court. Oh. And new judges' orientation. I'm, I'm still wrapping things up at the Court of Appeals, so it still feels surreal to me that I'm going to be <laugh> a judge. So I'm extremely excited, but definitely nervous. Any words of wisdom that you have?

Anne McDonough (12:08):
Well, first for judge school, you can edit this part out, but I hope you have hot showers. We did not have any hot showers

Bridget O'Brien (12:14):
At ours. <Laugh>. Okay. what hotel did you stay

Anne McDonough (12:16):
At? They, they, it was the Sheridan on Capitol Square. Okay, alright. Yeah. And unfortunately there was no hot water and I was like, oh, I thought we were elected judges about it.

Anne McDonough (12:27):
My advice would say for judge school, I really enjoyed that you go twice and it is people from all over the state of Ohio. And it's very interesting because we have very different jobs sometimes at, at least for juvenile court. Our Cuyahoga County juvenile court is unique to a lot of other juvenile county courts within the states. So I learned a lot and a lot of different perspectives from different people. But as far as the first six months, I would say just take it in and realize it's a marathon and not a sprint. I think I walked in in January and I was, I wanna do this and I wanna do this and I wanna change the whole institution <laugh> and realized that you have to take it day by day and be gentle on yourself and your staff and realize it's a marathon and kind of learn how the, how your position works before you change anything. I would say it is busier, heavier and harder than I thought it would be. And I have worked for juvenile court since 2016, so I think it's like MTV diaries. You think you like, think, you know, but you have no idea.

Bridget O'Brien (13:34):
Well that's kind of like the campaign Jen and I were talking about. Like I thought I knew exactly what I was getting into running, but,

Joe Burke (13:40):
And did you

Bridget O'Brien (13:41):
No. <Laugh> and,

Anne McDonough (13:44):
And you guys will both be municipal court, so you'll be in the same section and everything. What are you guys most excited for for taking the bench?

Joe Burke (13:51):
You go ahead.

Bridget O'Brien (13:52):
I, I'm really excited just for to me it kind of feels like full circle for my career. Before I went to law school, I did a year of service in California with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and that kind of prompted me to go to law school. And during law school I worked at Legal Aid and I really, I had this passion for social justice and in college I wanted to major in social work. And my dad had talked me out of it. <Laugh>, I feel like Cleveland Municipal Court is for me, like the perfect intersection of the law, social work and education, which is like three areas that I am really passionate about.

Joe Burke (14:30):
That's awesome. You know, what I was thinking of is, you know, I did serve as a magistrate but as a lawyer and I was a litigator, my job was pretty simple. I mean, just acting the client's best interest was kind of easy and liberating. But when you're in a position as a judge, it's actually much more complicated and layered because you're not only considering, you know, due process for a defendant, fairness, but you're also factoring in community concerns and safety. So it's a much harder job than just being an attorney. 'cause The attorney is just, you have one rule. Would you agree with that judge? I would,

Anne McDonough (15:08):
I would agree. And you will have some idea from being a magistrate, but it, when you're the judge, nobody else is signing off on your decision. <Laugh>. It's really you, you know? And I think you'll be tired at the end of the day. Yeah. Because you are on all day.

Joe Burke (15:23):
Yeah. This is my community and I do think, and I think bridge, you'll agree with me that, you know, the muni court is like the front lines. We can make a difference in lives if we get to them early enough. Exactly. Addiction and so forth. And also it's, we're community courts, so people are in there for serious stuff but not so serious stuff. So they just want to make sure this is the, usually the first time in court,

Bridget O'Brien (15:49):
Right? No, exactly. Yeah. And I remember when I, I actually had already graduated from law school, I don't know if I was awaiting the bar results, but I had a ticket <laugh> and I had to go to court and I just remember being so nervous and scared and, you know, it's an intimidating process,

Anne McDonough (16:10):
Especially for you guys. And I think for me in juvenile court, people coming in on some of the hardest days of their lives, the worst thing that's ever happened to them. Yes. To be compassionate and give them the each case, your time and attention I think is the best you can do.

Joe Burke (16:25):
I remember a story, and I'm gonna disclose this publicly, I was in general in front of Judge Fitzsimmons a long time ago, so I was a younger attorney and it was over 20 some years ago and I was so nervous and I remember for whatever reason I'm in front of her and I started having flop sweat <laugh>, like, it was like it was dripping down and my shirt was just soaked. I was so nervous and I was like, oh boy,

Bridget O'Brien (16:51):
<Laugh>.

Joe Burke (16:52):
And at that, and that was kind of, I just remember those experiences walking and I remember walking as a young attorney, two courtrooms and, and it really took me 10 years till I felt kind of had enough confidence. I don't know about you two, but I was very intimidated.

Bridget O'Brien (17:08):
Oh, definitely. And it's hard too. I mean that's the one thing that I think being an attorney, it's an absolute awesome profession, but day in, like you are taking, you are handling someone's problem. It it's a hard job. And I think judges that anything they can do to always remember that and appreciate that.

Joe Burke (17:33):
What about you judge?

Anne McDonough (17:35):
I can think of, well I think I worked for the prosecutor's office out of law school and they did not really give you a chance to be nervous about the courtroom. They just threw you in the courtroom. So we started in child support and I had a very, by the book Magistrate who followed the rules of evidence and I still am thankful she works at juvenile court. Oh, that's excellent. Magistrate Ellen Leonetti, I'm still thankful that she was the first person I practiced in front of because I really got good habits, I think. And I think that that office makes you very comfortable with the rules of evidence pretty fast because I, one thing I do struggle with as a judge is not looking at the other side during a trial to say, why aren't you objecting <laugh> like that? Like, oh, I don't wanna give any iMessages away. But yes, I was definitely nervous to, in my first jury trial, I was very Oh yeah. Very nervous. And the feedback you always get from juries though is so interesting, would always be like, why don't you wear more color honey <laugh> or things like that.

Joe Burke (18:33):
Nothing about the merits of the case, but what you

Anne McDonough (18:35):
Wearing. Yeah. Nothing about the case but about that. But knowing both the you and knowing the attorneys that you are and the people that you are, and I just think that the city of Cleveland and the city of Rocky River are gonna be really lucky come January.

Bridget O'Brien (18:48):
Aw,

Joe Burke (18:49):
Thank you so much, judge. You were staff attorney too, for Judge Russo?

Anne McDonough (18:53):
Yes. John Russo. Yes. Mm-Hmm.

Joe Burke (18:54):
<Affirmative>. So I remember that.

Anne McDonough (18:56):
I think judge is the position as a judge is really as a of any public official and really in the government, the most direct impact that you can have on one person's life. I think that that's important to remember and one of the reasons that I wanted to do it.

Joe Burke (19:13):
Now, Bridget, lemme ask you this. When you were campaigning did, when you were out there, did people understand what a Cleveland municipal court judge does?

Bridget O'Brien (19:21):
You know, that's a great question, Joe. And I would say generally, no, I would get the question now, especially in the community safety meetings, people rightfully so are really concerned about increased crime and, and sometimes with their hearing on the media may not necessarily be exactly what's happening, but in a general sense of are you gonna be tough on crime and give them the maximum and send them, you know, and I'm like, I won't be sending anyone to prison. <Laugh> that's jail might, you know, might be necessary in some cases. But the, the trial court, there's confusion between the difference between the jurisdiction of the municipal court versus the common police general division, you know, but people were interested in learning and wanting to know. So that was one of my talking points. Yeah. The, you know, when I would return to meetings is just give a, an understanding of how the different courts work with their jurisdiction covers the court of appeals.

Bridget O'Brien (20:22):
Everyone has a right to appeal one time. Many cases you're not going to, it's not gonna go beyond the court of appeals. So I do think that there's really opportunity for education. My parents who I worked at the Court of Appeals for many years as, as before we changed the title from law clerk to judicial attorney. But I was a law clerk as an attorney working for an appellate judge. I think it took my parents years to understand, like, so when, when are you an attorney <laugh>? I am an attorney <laugh>. But I think the more that we can do to just explain and make it understandable, the mm-Hmm <affirmative> the better it is.

Joe Burke (21:00):
Judge, do you think people understand, do juvenile court and the importance of what you do and, and how important you are for families?

Anne McDonough (21:08):
I think hopefully that the families that come into my courtroom do, and I try to explain everything that we do. But I, I think it is kind of hard to wrap your head around if you've never walked in the building or you, or you have no experience in a courtroom, what exactly we do. And we do cover a lot of things. Child support, abuse, neglect, dependency, traffic paternity, private custody, and delinquency. So it is, it's a lot of different things. So I don't think so really broadly, how about you? Do you, did you feel that they understood?

Joe Burke (21:43):
I I felt like I, part of my job was to educate people and why municipal court is important to them and why a good judge is important. 'cause A lot of people don't understand it. And, and just because they never dealt with the court, they haven't been in a court. So that was part of, you know, my task and challenge and campaigning is this is why it's important, this is how it could potentially affect you. And everyone talks about, you know, crime and safety. But you know, we do some other things there too. Oftentimes the citizens just wanna be heard. They don't even care what happens, but they wanna be heard by someone in a position of authority. And that's important to them, I think.

Bridget O'Brien (22:22):
So did you know Joe, when you were doing the leadership academy that you were planning on running for Judge, were you thinking about it at that time, or?

Joe Burke (22:30):
I think it was in the back of my head, but not in the forefront.

Bridget O'Brien (22:32):
And the first time that you ran, judge you, this was prior to the leadership academy, correct? It was,

Anne McDonough (22:39):
Yeah. Okay.

Anne McDonough (22:40):
I had always, for most of my legal career, wanted to eventually someday be, actually I really only aspired as high as a a magistrate I thought. And then as my career went on, I, I was encouraged by really good leaders and former bosses who judge John Russo and Judge Tom O'Malley. I really worked for people who encouraged me to pursue more opportunities. So as my career developed, I, I got this dream and I do think the Leadership Academy really gave me the confidence to excel at it and do a good job. So now you guys are fresh off the campaigning, I've probably already forgotten how hard it is. What was your most challenging part of the campaign and maybe something you didn't expect?

Joe Burke (23:23):
Well, for me you know, I've been around the legal system for a while. So I thought this is an off your municipal court election, you know, just, you know, the, the best candidate wins. I didn't think, I thought it'd be political. I didn't think it'd be that political wrong about that, especially in today's climate with the issues there. It was really more political than I anticipated. And then there was a lot of challenges because, you know, I estimating the turnout in my race to be, you know, 27% and it was 58% and a lot of people were mobilized. So for me it was just more political and I had to somewhat pivot and pivot by just saying, listen, I'm the best candidate and so forth. And so for me that was the biggest,

Bridget O'Brien (24:14):
I think just the amount of resources that it takes to run a successful campaign. Early on in the campaign, people would ask me so many times Now, tell your campaign manager <laugh> and I would giggle 'cause I'm like my campaign manager. Like, you know, I, I had a number of people helping me, but I don't think I had like the,

Anne McDonough (24:33):
I would be like, you're looking at her <laugh>. Exactly.

Bridget O'Brien (24:35):
Exactly. And you're

Joe Burke (24:36):
Kind of, we're your staff. Yeah. Right. You're looking at 'em.

Bridget O'Brien (24:39):
Right. And, and this, and these are people that were helping me would be like, well, now tell now what does your campaign manager say about this? It does take a lot of resources in terms of people money and time. I, I took time off work and they were gracious that I, and I had the ability to take time off work, which was necessary to, to run a successful campaign. And I definitely like had to sit my children down and be like, you know, this is gonna be, this is short-lived, but I'm gonna not be able to make all the games. Yeah. And I'm gonna be missing this. And, and I thought I would be okay with that. But then, you know, I missed out on the college visits with my son and, you know, it, it is hard. Like it is a huge sacrifice. And then when people would say to me, well, it's good you're getting your name out if you're, if you're not successful, you know, you can run next time. And, and I would think like, this is such a toll, like for me personally, I, you know, maybe once my kids are out of the house, I would think about running again if I hadn't been successful. But I mean, it, it really is a huge sacrifice. So I commend everyone that runs and especially people that are unsuccessful like that. They really should be proud. Like, it does take a lot to run for office if you take it seriously.

Anne McDonough (25:56):
I would agree with both of you. And now hearing both of you talk brought back memories of that. But I would say for me too, I am a single mom and it was, my parents really had to sign up. They were my first call and say, you're gonna have to be doing a lot of driving and helping with homework and everything like that. And I, it was harder than you think it's gonna be. And it is interesting though. I love being in a community meeting in a church basement and seeing what's going on. I just love listening to people talk. So it is, it, it's, you wanna be in two places at one time. 'cause I'm like, I need to, I wanna stay involved and continue to be involved in the community too.

Joe Burke (26:34):
Well, I, you know, you brought up a good point. Our families, a shout out to my wife, Michelle. First of all, she ran my campaign, but she was also married to me. <Laugh>, you must feel that way. Your families, your kids. They made great sacrifices the whole year. Oh. And it's not easy on the spouses significant others or family members or kids. So we, we owe a lot to them. And, and thank you Michelle, for putting up with me. So

Bridget O'Brien (27:03):
<Laugh>, so maybe Michelle can be part of Matt's support group. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Joe Burke (27:07):
Yeah.

Bridget O'Brien (27:07):
And Matt, yeah. And, and I am remiss not to thank Matt on election night. We were kind of giving a recap of everything that the campaign involved from like, the number of mailers that went out, the number of T-shirts ordered, the number signs ordered, the number of meetings parades. And then of course my husband put in there a thousand. I'm like, what is a thousand? The number of fights?

Becky Ruppert McMahon (27:31):
<Laugh>.

Anne McDonough (27:34):
I still have one outstanding campaign promise I promised if I won, I would get my kids a dog. Ooh. I have yet to

Joe Burke (27:41):
Judge

Anne McDonough (27:43):
Do

Bridget O'Brien (27:43):
That. How about Christmas? Is that, you

Anne McDonough (27:45):
Know, I I'm thinking maybe spring <laugh>. Okay. I wanna train a puppy in the snow.

Bridget O'Brien (27:50):
Right, right. Okay.

Anne McDonough (27:51):
Well this has been really fun talking to you guys.

Joe Burke (27:54):
Thank you Judge. Bridget, I wish you the best and Judge McDonough. Thank you. I both had my watch you from afar and it's so nice to get to know you and I'm looking forward to our journey together.

Bridget O'Brien (28:08):
Same. Thank you so much, both of you.

Anne McDonough (28:10):
Excited so much for both of you to join the bench. And I, as I said before, two lucky communities to have you guys.

Joe Burke (28:17):
Thank you.

Becky Ruppert McMahon (28:18):
Thank you for joining us for today's My Bar story. To hear other bar stories or to check out any of the CBAs other podcasts, please go to Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. You can also go to our website@cblemetrobar.org slash podcast. We hope you listen again soon.