This week's MyBarstory podcast features an honest discussion about Celebrating the Lived Experiences of Black Attorneys. This challenging and compelling conversation was recorded on the last day of Black History Month. Moderated by Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud of the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, attorneys Brandon Brown, Leslie S. Johns, and Ron V. Johnson share their obstacles and opportunities as Black lawyers in Cleveland.
This week's MyBarstory podcast features an honest discussion about Celebrating the Lived Experiences of Black Attorneys. This challenging and compelling conversation was recorded on the last day of Black History Month. Moderated by Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud of the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, attorneys Brandon Brown, Leslie S. Johns, and Ron V. Johnson share their obstacles and opportunities as Black lawyers in Cleveland.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (00:05):
Hello, I'm Becky Rupert McMahon, CEO of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association. Welcome to a new season of my Bar Story podcast. We began this project to create an oral history of the bar for our 150th birthday in 2023. The response has been tremendous. We've got many more great bar stories to share this year and beyond, so let's get started with another my bar story.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (00:32):
Good evening, everyone. My name is Lashelle Strau. I currently serve as the lead juvenile judge in Franklin County and our domestic relations in juvenile court. So excited to be here with you all this evening. As we close Black History Month all of us know that while during Black History Month it's highlighted in February, but black history really is American history. And we are here this evening in the spirit of that to share the lived experiences of the panelists in hopes of being able to create a more informed discussion and how we can all move forward to create an even better and welcoming legal system. So first I'll have each of the panelists to introduce yourselves, share a little bit about what attracted you to the law and where you currently are practicing. So we'll start first with Ron.
Ron Johnson (01:24):
Good evening, everyone. My name is Ron Johnson. I work at the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland. As general counsel, I've been there about four and a half months. Prior to that, I was 24 years at KeyBank working in various capacities as a lawyer and as a non-lawyer. And I'm excited to be here. I'm thankful for being asked to participate and, you know, be a part of this esteemed panel. My interest in the law started probably back when I was in, in high school. I never really wanted to be like a trial lawyer like we would see on tv. I was always into banking and finance. I actually thought I was gonna be some hot shot Wall Street lawyer. I'm not. But I do enjoy financial services and banking. I spent my entire career in financial services. And one thing I will say is I absolutely love being a lawyer. I've had jobs where I didn't practice, and I've had jobs obviously where I did practice, but there's a lot of freedom to being a lawyer. And so that's one thing I really enjoy. So just, that's just a little bit about me. Thank you.
Leslie Johns (02:29):
Good evening, everyone. My name is Leslie Johns and I am a criminal defense attorney, a partner of a JLJ law here in Cleveland. My practice is primarily criminal defense, do some protection, order work as well. I don't really know when exactly I became interested, but I was my mom was disappointed to know that I didn't wanna be a veterinarian anymore, and so I had to figure out something to do. And so I took a couple of criminal justice classes in undergrad and eventually was kind of pushed into taking the lsat and surprisingly got into some law schools and decided that I would try my hand at, at the legal field. And the rest is history. So I love what I do. I love the practice that we have here in Cleveland, and I'm so excited to be sharing this evening with you.
Brandon Brown (03:21):
Good evening, everyone. My name is Brandon Brown. I am legal counsel at the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company. I became first interested in the law back in high school actually because of the CMBA. There were some attorneys from a firm here locally at the Tucker Ellis who came over and helped us out with our mock trial team when I was a freshman in high school. And ever since then, I kind of got a big bite of bug, if you will. So when I think of my experience I always think about mentorship and it's something that is extremely important to me because it's something that really shaped my experience. You know, I decided I wanted to be an attorney when I was in high school. And that was because I had mentorship at that age. I was able to work at a firm, and Aisha Bell Hardaway was my now Professor Bell Hardaway was was my supervisor there.
Brandon Brown (04:13):
And she, at I was 13 at the time, instilled in me the confidence to be able to even pursue being an attorney. You know, I definitely understand what it's like to, to not really know anybody or, or even know what you're getting into, right. To even know what it means to be an attorney besides what you may see on tv. And even then, I wasn't seeing people that looked like me. So for me, it was all about mentorship. And from then on, you know, I was able to attach myself to a lot of people who were willing to pour into me. And so the advice that I always give to any law students or anyone who has an interest in the law or any professional field, really, is to find someone who's in a position that you'd like to be in and ask them all the questions, right?
Brandon Brown (04:56):
Be curious, but not only be curious, but also have the confidence to want to follow up on that curiosity, right? And be able to ask those questions. So for me, I think it's, it's about mentorship and finding, finding those people. And that's, that really, you know, helped me in my journey. I was able to, to continue to meet people throughout college and the Lewis Oaks Scholars Program, and I was able to continue to do these internships. And then even once I got into law school, I was able to participate in the one oh Clerkship program. So there were time and again, I was able to keep making these points of connection sometimes with the same people and sometimes with new people all the way up till now I'm working at Goodyear and I'm working with someone who was a mentor to me a long time ago, who's now a close friend of mine, drew Odom, right? So every step of my career I've been able to make moves because of the connections that I've built. So for me, I think it's all about being able to make those connections and, and genuine connections and, and get those mentors. And Leslie, what role has
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (05:56):
Mentorship played for you? And if you could share some advice that you give to younger black attorneys, as well as the advice that has helped you along your journey?
Leslie Johns (06:06):
I a hundred percent agree with, with mentorship in the the field that I practice, there's just, there's 5% of attorneys or black in the United States anyways. So to narrow that down into, you know, criminal defense, to narrow that down into being a woman in criminal defense, there's just a select few people that I have to, to talk to, to look to to share experiences with. So having mentors to talk to about just being a woman in, in criminal defense being a black woman in criminal defense is something that I value. I'm always open and willing to, to talk to any, any student, any law student about what my experiences have been if there's any way that I can uplift them and bring them into our world and what we do I'm happy to do that because I understand how important it is.
Leslie Johns (06:57):
The connections that I've made, like Brandon was saying, through different organizations, through different bar associations, have really solidified some positions that I've had. I would not have been able to be a magistrate in certain courts if I did not have the connections through certain organizations and, and associations. Quite frankly, they wouldn't know who, who I was <laugh> if, if it wasn't for that. And so it's certainly important and valuable to, to make those connections. And like I said, I'm always willing to, to mentor anyone who needs a mentor, who wants a mentor, no matter really what field that you, you really wanted to practice in. One thing I would say about, you know, something that I did not know going into to this legal practice, I mean, I guess we would think that we, you know, took the bar exam, graduated, have a law degree, that that would somehow magically make us accepted or recognized as equal in, in the profession.
Leslie Johns (07:54):
And that's just simply not the case. Even, even today, going into almost 10 years of practice, just Monday, I'm in the arraignment room in Kaga County, and I'm asked if I'm a lawyer while I'm sitting in the arraignment room, obviously dressed in a, in a suit waiting for my, my case to be called, sitting next to a colleague who happens to be a white male. He didn't get asked if he was an attorney, but I, I did. And I think sometimes when those, when those things happen, which unfortunately happens quite often, but when those things happen, it's just a reminder of the issues with the lack of diversity, the lack of similar faces and familiar faces in the courtrooms that we practice in. Because that should never happen. That should definitely never happen, especially for someone who's been in that, that courtroom for nearly 10 years. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (08:43):
And you raise a very interesting point. I'm so glad that you did. How do you respond in those types of situations? I know myself, I have been licensed for 20 years and presiding overhears we'll have attorneys who will do things that I know they do not do in the courtrooms on either side of me, like when I'm speaking stand up because they're upset with a ruling that I just gave, as if they're going to walk out and are rushing me along. How do you pause in those moments to respond when you're questioned about who you are, what your purpose is in the room, and still be able to do the job that you came to do? I'm
Leslie Johns (09:29):
Not good at it, <laugh>. I'm really, I'm really not good at the response. I guess it depends on the scenario, but there are, I mean, one occasion in particular sticks out, you know, in my mind, and it was much earlier on in my career, and I was not in Cuyahoga County, I was in, you know, unfamiliar territory, you know, a few counties over. I was there for a trial and it honestly was, you know, probably the first five, you know, jury trials that I had had. But I was with someone who I considered to be a mentor. He asked me to be second chair. So I'm there, show up and do what I'm supposed to do a second chair, I'm ready, I'm gonna do the opening, I'm gonna do a couple crosses. And the first day went fine with this, with this judge.
Leslie Johns (10:09):
The first day was fine. We met in chambers, although, you know, there's a lot of condescending tone and a lot of microaggressions about showing me the ropes and ex, you know, showing me this thing and that thing. Like, I had never been in a courtroom before, but, you know, didn't say anything. Obviously knew my name because I didn't open statement and introduced myself to the jury. And the, obviously the witnesses had to, everybody's names had to be placed on the record at some point. But the second day I come back for trial, it's this the second day and everything is eerily different after I'd done my opening, we go back into chambers first thing we get there and the chief prosecutor is now there there's an assistant prosecuting case. The chief is now there, and we're having a meeting before we start the second day.
Leslie Johns (10:49):
And I have no idea why we're, we're doing this. It's kind of weird. We just, you know, could get started. But I was asked at that moment in time, and I could see on the computer, the judge had the Ohio Supreme Court attorney search website up, and he asked me, are you licensed to practice in Ohio? And I'm like, I mean, what do you say to that at that point? Because now you're accusing me of essentially not being <laugh>, not being an attorney, and lying about that, and who does, who would do that in an entire trial on the second day after I've already done the opening statement and he was putting in my name wrong, so he didn't even remember what my name was to put it in, right. So he is typing it in, in front of me. And then I'm, I have to say at that point, you know, you're not spelling my name right, my last name is John's, not Johnson.
Leslie Johns (11:31):
So it wouldn't come up. But, you know, the accusation there at that point, I mean, I didn't, at that moment, I didn't know what to say. And I was in a position where, you know, in that there was a definitely a power dynamic that I didn't know what to say. Now, my response would be a lot different than I didn't know what to say. And then after the day of trial, you know, that trial, I probably cried. But after, you know, we did get a not guilty verdict. So, you know, I guess it went okay. But in that moment, I didn't really know what to say. Now. I would be a lot more assertive. Now I am a lot more assertive. I know that I'm a lawyer. I know that everyone in that courtroom, other than that person who asked me if I was a lawyer, knows who I am, and knows that I practiced in that court all the time. But I wish that I would've known what to say. And I think having these conversations are important with newer attorneys and younger attorneys, because I didn't know what to say in that moment. And I would've hoped and, and liked when I was in that position to know what I should say when that happens, especially when a judge approaches me like that. Mm-Hmm,
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (12:35):
<Affirmative>, absolutely. I too remember similar stories going to other counties, not Cuyahoga or Franklin Counties. And just remember what it's like when you ride into the county and everyone is looking at you as if you're not, what are you doing here? This perhaps is not a place for you, and then you find yourself in a courtroom in front of jurors. Ron, do you have similar stories? And what do you share with younger attorneys? I agree with Leslie that no one prepared me for those types of things. I too thought that after I was licensed and now I'm an attorney, it was kind of like perhaps I'd be immune from discrimination and that everyone would know I had arrived and I earned the right to be here. So do you have similar experiences and what do you share with younger attorneys as a part of mentoring black attorneys to make them aware of your experiences and how perhaps to respond?
Ron Johnson (13:35):
What I heard from that, from your story, Leslie, is something I think that happens to a lot of young black professionals, regardless of, of the profession. And I think it's more acute in law because our profession is sort of measured in time, right? So, you know, how long have you been outta law school, how long you've been practicing, and there's a presumption that the longer you've been out of, the longer you've been, you've been practicing the better lawyer you are. And that might be true in many cases, but you know, younger attorneys or people who haven't been practicing for 20 years can be just as competent as a 20 year practitioner. I'm not a trial lawyer. I've never practiced before a tribunal. So my entire career has been, you know, working in-house in the corporate environment. And as a young professional, even before I was an attorney, would run into the same kinds of things.
Ron Johnson (14:28):
I know that for many young people, when, when I was younger, I felt the same way. I went to school, I got my degree. I'm rel I'm reasonably smart, I got a job, right? I'm competent, and therefore I should be accepted. And the reality was, for me, that that's, people just don't see it that way. Getting the degree, getting the credential, that's sort of the table stakes. But then, then you still have to prove yourself for whatever that means. And that's where I think mentoring or finding a mentor is helpful because like, it's really the environment. How do you read the environment? I can't speak to this from, from personal experience, but from what I understand, when you're a trial lawyer and you're going into different courts, every court has their own culture, right? And so, knowing people that can help you understand, watch out for this judge.
Ron Johnson (15:19):
This judge likes to do these kinds of things, this person's gonna say something fly to you. So you have to be prepared, you know, to kind of react to that. And it's the same thing, you know, in a corporate environment if you, whether, whether or not you're an attorney. So sometimes what I tell people is that you kind of have to develop this thing called emotional intelligence. So, which means that you have to be able to kind of read the room and re read the people that you're dealing with, but you also have to be able to read your own emotions. So like, if you need to take a minute, go take a minute, because especially being young and black, and I'll just dare I say young, black male, like, if you react to something in a aggressive way, that's a, that's a stain on you, and it's gonna be hard to remove.
Ron Johnson (16:06):
And I'm not saying it's fair. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's what it's, and so developing some emotional intelligence, I think is important. So when I talk to people, that's what I talk about. It's how do you build that emotional intelligence? How do you develop that poker face so that when somebody says something crazy to you, you just kinda look at 'em and you reflect and that you don't have wear your emotions on your sleeve. Some people can do that. Well, others, it takes practice. But it is a learned skill, trust me, I've seen it.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (16:40):
And do you ever get away from the feeling of I have to prove myself
Ron Johnson (16:45):
Eventually, but that's, that's time. So when you first start out, you don't really know. Everyone's a little nervous. They're, you know, feeling a little insecure. But the more you do something, the more you realize, you know what I, I know what I'm doing. Like I, I'm, I have skill. You begin to build that, that self-confidence. 'cause That's really, in my opinion, that's kind of what it really, what it really is, is you have to build up self-confidence that you can be successful in the environment that you're in. And moving from one organization to the next, going from different courtrooms and different environments, you, it's a constant, you're always doing that, you know? And so sometimes it could be exhausting, right? But in my, in my experience, that's what you gotta do if you wanna be successful,
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (17:32):
Right? Because if we're honest, it is absolutely exhausting, right? To have the expectation to be prepared to show up, to oftentimes be over prepared, to have to prove yourself and to carry those things with you as you're simply trying to practice law. Brandon, what has it been like to, for you? Have you had similar experiences, and what advice do you wish that someone would've given you on this road to showing up as a black male attorney?
Brandon Brown (18:07):
So I've certainly had similar experiences where I've encountered both microaggressions and I guess macroaggressions where sometimes people can be pretty bold about the way that they address you, and the way that they make it clear that they don't think you're competent. I've also dealt with being a, just being a younger attorney and seeing some of the politics. You know, I started practicing when I was, I was 23. And so when I started working for the city of Cleveland, the one of the reasons why I chose to go work for the city of Cleveland is because I knew I would get a lot of experience and I knew I would be able to get good courtroom experience. And, and that held true. I was able to sit in on trials very early and sit second and first chair on some trials. But that comes with some of those issues that we stated where people are gonna assume that you don't know the rules, right?
Brandon Brown (18:58):
That you don't know your way around the courtroom. It is about confidence. But the thing about confidence is that I, I think confidence is a learned skill and a learned emotion. It's something that at least for me, did not, in some ways it came naturally, but in others it does. It needs to be built up. And you have to be intentional about it. You have to be intentional about owning your wins and learning from your losses. I don't wanna necessarily say downplay your losses. I think oftentimes we are our, our biggest critics, so we tend to really lean on our losses. And I think it's important when building confidence to try to do the inverse and really remember I remember when I was in law school, I would say to myself out loud, sometimes, you know, remember you already have a degree.
Brandon Brown (19:42):
Remember that you <laugh> you're already successful, right? You're already living someone's dream. So I think for me, when I come into contact with some of those microaggressions where it seems like someone is challenging whether or not you even belong in the space I think for me it varies depending on where you are, what the situation is, who's committing the microaggressions, right? It could be a judge, it could be a partner, it could be someone who you, who you actually value their opinion which, which hurts. And, and I think that determines how you're gonna address it. I don't think there's a one size fits all solution to how to deal with those kind of issues. Sometimes it's a situation where it needs to be addressed right then and there, right? To say, actually, no, I know what I'm, I know what I'm doing here.
Brandon Brown (20:26):
I absolutely belong in this space. Other times it takes, you know, going kind of behind the scenes, waiting till you cool off, right? Understanding yourself as well to know, Hey, if I address this right now, it's probably not gonna go very well for any of us. You know, that's why mentorship again is gonna, is so important, because that's when I lean on my mentors to say, Hey, this happened to me. Is this, is this normal? Does this normally happen? How would you respond to it? Or how do you recommend that? I would respond to it. And sometimes it's good to be able to just, to just talk that out. I think I learned that earlier in my career, having a situation where I was reliant on another attorney to kind of help me with some work I had never done before. And in doing that, I kind of allowed a situation to get really further outta my control.
Brandon Brown (21:14):
And it led to me kind of blowing an assignment, and it was extremely stressful. And to fi and come to find out that attorney kind of threw me under the bus to some of our superiors and kind of say, yeah, well, I thought Brandon was supposed to take care of this. It's like, well, Brandon was relying on you, right? And I, I, so, but I learned the lesson of, you know, not allowing someone else to have control over my career and, and over how I look, at least not in that regard. So I think for me it's just it's, it's not a one size fits all thing, but as I've encountered it, I think each of those experiences has built me stronger.
Ron Johnson (21:48):
I think what Brandon said is like, spot on. And, and I appreciate you, you sharing that. One, one other thought though, that came to mind as you were speaking, and, and this is something that might be a bit of a bitter pill to swallow. Like sometimes we do need to kind of sit back and listen, and we may not always get the feedback we need in the way we wanna receive it. And I think that's part of the emotional intelligence piece of it, of it as well. 'cause I, I remember when I first started, I worked with an attorney who had a horrible reputation in the company, you know, where I worked. He, people just didn't like him. He just, they didn't like his, his attitude. But he was a good, good lawyer. And so I, and I had to work directly with him. And there were plenty of times when his response to me was less than desired. And sometimes I wanted to have some, you know, some few choice words. But I chose not to do that. And I actually learned a lot just about lawyering from this person. I didn't like his style, you know, I didn't like his attitude. I felt like he, his demeanor was, you know, less than to be desired. But I did wanna learn the actual technical skills. And so sometimes we have to make those, those decisions. And so, you know, we just have to learn how to, how to measure ourselves,
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (23:10):
Right? Because sometimes you do ask yourself like, is this normal? Do other people experience this Same thing. Where can I find refuge or safety? So Leslie, have you found refuge and other attorneys? Is it decompressing with non-attorneys? Where do you find refuge when you have encountered what oftentimes is normal for us as black attorneys?
Leslie Johns (23:38):
I think decompressing is a, is is really a good word to use. I I can explain to my law partners here. I can ex tell her things that happened, but she can't always understand. And she would admit that she's just like, I can't, I can't truly understand what you're going through in that situation. I empathize, I'm sorry that that happened to you, but I cannot truly put myself in that position. 'cause I am not a black woman. So sometimes it's decompressing myself by myself. Like Monday, I'm just like, I might tweet about it and, and then, and then take a minute and then just move on in front of, and just again, say to myself like, I mean, I know why it happened, and it is what it is. I know that I'm a competent attorney. I know that I'm a good lawyer. Whatever comment that was made towards me has nothing to do with me and, and who I am as, as a person and what my character is.
Leslie Johns (24:33):
So I just kind of have to take a minute to, to, to brush it off and move on with my day. Because ultimately I still had an arraignment to do in 10 minutes <laugh>. So I had to kind of, you know, get over it. But really decompressing is a, a, sitting with it a little bit and really coming to terms with the fact that in recognizing these things unfortunately happen. And I, I don't like that it is happening. And if there is a point in which we can advocate for education within the criminal justice system, specifically, not just the attorneys, but all of the players that are involved, you know, that that is what I would want and want to strive for. But sometimes it's just sitting in it and, you know, firing off a, a tweet about it to release whatever irritation. What
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (25:20):
Is it like for you doing criminal defense work, knowing about the gross disparities in, you know, mass incarceration, the number of African Americans who are dealing with the criminal justice system as far as it relates to incarceration? So to be able to recognize the reality of that as well as for you to show up in spite of what oftentimes the normal is like for you when you walk into courtrooms, how do you balance how you feel with all of those realities and what is, and what you need to do in representing clients?
Leslie Johns (25:58):
Well, I find it, for me, being a criminal defense attorney is a privilege to me. To be able to practice in the criminal justice system is, is a dream for me. My background is in criminal justice. I did not know, like I said, I wanted to be a veterinarian, then I decided that I wanted to be possibly a probation officer. I worked in a probation department doing externship, and then I didn't really know what side of the law that I wanted to be on. I wanted to be a prosecutor, wrote my entire law school essay about wanting to be a prosecutor. And then I worked at the public defender's office in law school and decided that that is exactly the opposite of what I wanted to do. You know, being in working in this field really motivates me. Knowing what is happening in, in our criminal justice system, knowing what's happening specifically in our criminal justice system in Cuyahoga County, motivates me to, you know, do the best that I possibly can for my clients.
Leslie Johns (26:52):
You know, and knowing what the pitfalls are. I know one of the things that I say is like, the reason why when speaking to clients generally and and wanting clients to retain is I know what it's like. I have, you know, family members who have been caught up in the criminal justice system. I know what it was like for them. So it's of the utmost importance that you select representation that understands some of the, the traps and some of the pitfalls and some of the landmines that you might come across. And so, really, I mean, it's a privilege to work in, in the criminal justice system. For me, every day is an opportunity for me to make it better. And, you know, that's kind of what I, what I strive to do.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (27:32):
And do you feel like you're making it better?
Leslie Johns (27:35):
I do One, I mean, one client at a time, <laugh>. I can't, I can't like save everyone, but I, I really do try to, I, you know, don't do a lot of assignments or a lot of pro bono work, just not because I don't want to, it's just time. But I will tell, you know, 'cause sometimes if you, if it's an appointed case, the client's like, well, you know, I want a real lawyer. And <laugh> and I, and I explain, you know, you are appointed to, I am appointed to represent you, and I can assure you that I will do the best job that any lawyer, any paid lawyer could, could do for you. And I really do truly believe that my law partner can say like, I will, I don't care. I'll go to trial <laugh> for, for you, I know I'm not gonna get paid what I would get paid if I was retained, but I don't care. I mean, I, I'm not in the business of just resolving cases to resolve cases. And so, like I said, it's really, I mean, I try one, one client at a time to, to get justice in, in some way, even if it's just a drop in the bucket. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (28:31):
And so when you go into courtrooms, like situations that you shared earlier, and speaking of allies, is it your preference that if you encounter, whether it's, you know, the judge or another person in the courtroom asking you openly if you are the attorney or saying something, would you prefer for someone else to say something, for you to say something for the people who are in the room who say, I would like to be an ally, and yes, I heard that. What would be helpful to you in those types of situations?
Leslie Johns (29:06):
It would be great for someone else to speak up. I mean, I can certainly in, in this, you know, where I am in my career now, feel more com comfortable. And like you said, confidence is kind of built. Like, I feel more confident in being able to, to speak up for myself and to explain for myself, like of, of course, you know, I'm an attorney, you know, and maybe make a, you know, kind of a rude joke about it. But like on Monday for the, the white male attorney who I know because I said hello, good morning when I sat next to him to say, you know, to the deputy, like, yeah, of course she's a lawyer. You know, so any, that would've been cool, that would've been real, that would've been really nice. That would've been refreshing because that does not ever happen.
Leslie Johns (29:46):
But, but that really, I mean, showing up, and I know it, you know, last day of Black History month, but like you said, black history is American history, and we're not just black in the month of February. It's, it's every day. And for people to show up for us on more than one time a year, or, you know, every day when they see something that is very obviously a microaggression or even a macroaggression, it would be nice for someone else to have to say something because we're always in the position of having to defend. It would be great to just sit back and allow someone else to, to recognize, you know, what just happened? Mm-Hmm.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (30:23):
<Affirmative>, right? Like how refreshing that would be, because when you're in that moment, I think you kind of pause yourself too. Like, did that really just happen? Like IS I'm in an ongoing trial. And earlier this week, it was time, it was about four 30, and the attorney, she didn't want to be there to start with. And so I was calling for us to start the next witness, and she started to comment about, you know, how it's four 30 and why would we have a witness? And we're still on the record, and why would you call a witness? And that's only 20, 30 minutes. And so I look over at my staff attorney because I really thought like, this really just happened, right? Again, I know there's no way you would do this in either courtroom to the right or to the left of me.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (31:11):
And I had to pause. And that moment and my staff attorney looked over me like, that really did just happen. And so I, I took a break, regained my composure, right? I know who I am, but oftentimes we have to encourage ourself, like Brandon said earlier. And so I went back out because you have to know yourself, right? Because if I would've said something in that moment it would've been on me and not on her. And so I went back out after I had regrouped and had the, the clients to step out of the courtroom and had a conversation with the lawyers. So now we really are eating into the time that we could have had for the witness. And I, I still called the witness after that. But I shared on the record with the attorneys, perhaps I didn't lay out the expectations and whose courtroom this is.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (32:03):
So this is my courtroom. I go from when I say, we're going to go until when we're going to stop. And my expectation is that everyone will be respectful and follow along. Obviously, if you have things that we need to talk about, then we can do that. But we're going until I say that we're going to end. And the expectation is that there won't be any commentary. And from here on I'm going to interpret that as disrespect, which I don't tolerate. But it is refreshing when you can look over and have someone else to say, that's not right, because the, the other attorneys all in the room heard it as well as their clients. And yet I had to be the one. Now I know it's a courtroom and it's my courtroom, so I need to say something, but it would be nice if sometimes someone else would say something so that we all acknowledge that this actually happened.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (32:57):
And I think that's how we can move forward so that people know that I am not going to tolerate this disrespect. So let's just put it all out there, and any of us can speak up when we hear something we tell our kids, right? If you see something, say something, they have the signs all in the airport. So how about we all do that for each other? If we were, if we really say we want a more equitable legal system so that we're not always the ones who have to speak up and say, this is not normal, but it is my normal, and there's sometimes when I just want to be able to breathe and show up and do my job and not have to navigate all of these other things. Brandon, how do you think we move towards a more equitable legal system? And how can we have more conversations like these without us as the black attorneys feeling like this is our burden to bear, to carry on our shoulders?
Brandon Brown (33:56):
That truly is the exhausting part of it all right? Is that ultimately it feels as though the burden is on us to fix a problem that we didn't really create, but we are the ones who it's most detrimental too. And so I think it, it's, it's multi-level. I think on one hand it is about holding people accountable, and that means holding ourselves accountable and then also holding those bad actors accountable as well and finding ways to do that at a systemic level, but then also on a case by case basis as well as it comes up. And, and what I mean by that specifically is that I think that the easy, I don't wanna say easiest, the simplest solution is to increase diversity, right? Which sounds simple. It's obviously not simple at all. But I think in general, when there are more of us present, right?
Brandon Brown (34:48):
When there's more when our presence is no longer the exception to the rule, then some of the things will hopefully fall by the wayside, right? When it's not as abnormal to see a black attorney, right, or a black woman attorney in a courtroom, then it's gonna be less likely that people are gonna assume that you're not an attorney, right? They're used to seeing you all the time. And that requires intentionality by places that are recruiting either law students or attorneys. That, that, that means looking at different criteria for what it means to be evaluated as an attorney or as a law student. And that means the students themselves being, and, and the young attorneys being very intentional about the way that they move and making themselves great candidates, right? And so I think that it's a really, it's a wholesale approach, but it has to be an intentional approach.
Brandon Brown (35:38):
It's something that I remember having very long discussions with cfi, where I, I just left CFI back in November. We had a lot of discussions over the three years I was there about ways that they could in not only increase their diversity, but improve the lives of their diverse attorneys while they're there. And we talked a lot about thinking outside the box particularly when it comes to evaluating talent. You know, if we're seeing statistics all over the place about bar passage, about grades in law school, about LSAT scores that all negatively affect the black community, but yet when we look at the black attorneys that we have, we're not seeing more discipline. We're not seeing people being disbarred at a higher rate, right? So when we actually break through the glass ceiling that people keep putting in front of us or above us, right?
Brandon Brown (36:26):
We're seeing us succeed, and yet we're still evaluating us based on the same metrics that clearly don't work, right? So finding those things that are gonna be different, right? Focusing on interviews, focusing on lived experiences, focusing on things that are gonna be different than just looking at the same things we've looked at before, right? We have to do something different. Clearly whatever we've been doing is not been working, right? We all have these lived experiences that show that the profession is not where it needs to be. Well, then we need to make dramatic changes, right? We need to hold each other accountable. It's something that at Norman s Minor, we're constantly trying to talk about ways that we can hold the organizations around us accountable and, and ways that we can build relationships. I think that relationships help. So I think for me, it's, it's obviously there's no way to kind of answer that question in a way where it's like, Hey, this is the answer to all of our problems. But for me, it's, it's that kind of multi-layered thing of we have to be very intentional about recruitment evaluation and then holding ourselves and others accountable.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (37:28):
Absolutely. So intentional about recruitment, the accountability, holding other people accountable, and yet still, right, show up, be present. How do we, how do we balance this? Going back to bearing the burden? Is it our burden to bear? Because sometimes it feels like, you know, how do you balance this presenting with this all my life, I had to fight kind of attitude, right? That's a, it is a real thing, right? Because you feel like you're constantly fighting everywhere that you go. And then sometimes met with the angry black woman stereotype, which is like, did I have a choice but to fight? Did I have a choice? But to speak up, Leslie, do you feel as if it is your burden to bear as we move toward a more equitable system?
Leslie Johns (38:21):
I think we should share the burden, but I am not the type of person that will just let someone else do it, because I don't trust that it'll get done <laugh>. So, so I don't, I don't trust that if we shift the burden to someone else, that we'll actually achieve what we're trying to achieve. I think that we have to be active participants, but I think that other people have to, to step up and kind of meet us halfway. I in no way think that we should continue to, to bear the burden of it, especially when those around us, organizations around us, firms around us are benefiting from us and what we provide and give as far as our talents. And so I do think that, you know, there needs to be more effort. I know it was a focus in 2020, but here we are in 2024, and I don't know that any of the numbers have changed as far as the increase in black attorneys in America and firms in general.
Leslie Johns (39:21):
So whatever we thought we were trying to do in 2020 has not worked. I think four years is enough to show that. So I think that there needs to be a lot more effort. And like Brandon was saying, think outside of the box. I don't, I don't think that there really was a lot of thinking outside of the box. I think it was just kinda like, okay, we're gonna create this and then let's recruit. But what does that, what are the actually yield? So I'm, yeah, like I said, I'm not the type of person to just not try and not put forth the effort, but I also think that you know, we definitely need to meet in the middle.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (39:54):
And Ron, what do you believe that the role of allies could be in creating a more equitable legal profession?
Ron Johnson (40:04):
I think the burden is ours, right? But to Leslie's point, it's a shared burden, and I think allyship is really, really important. So, you know, I don't expect, I, I expect black, black attorneys generally to support black attorneys. Just like, you know, Asian attorneys are gonna support Asian attorneys. I'm happy to be an ally to help support Asian attorneys, but at the end of the day, like we all have our own particular thing that we're, that, you know, that we're focused on. So, but allyship is really, really important because in order to address the diversity issue, it's really about exposure. And Brandon said it, he said he was exposed to lawyers when he was 13 years old. And I, I don't know if the lawyers that you were exposed to in Anying them were black, but lawyers came to your school and talked to you and sparked something.
Ron Johnson (40:58):
And fast forward, he's, he's an attorney. And that's what I think we need. We need to continue to do that. And I don't think it just has to be black lawyers showing up for black kids to see, but I do think that black kids need to see what black lawyers look like. There was a person that I saw in my community that I was like, wow, I, I didn't know that could exist. And so it was that exposure. I think we can support and, and grow allies to help us in this work, because at the end of the day, we want good lawyers out there doing good work, and we can all support each other in those kinds of ways. So I, like, I applaud the Cuyahoga County Law Department for putting on a program like this, and I applaud employees of CUA County for spending their evening to have this conversation because these are allies. This is, these are people that are helping to, to talk about why this is so important and how can we make an impact, not just on the black community, but any, any community that we're where we need to see increased diversity. So that's, that's how I look at it. Mm-Hmm,
Brandon Brown (42:04):
<Affirmative>, absolutely. Yes. I just want to jump in and just, just add something to that as far as allyship and some of the burden being shared with, with some of our allies. But, you know, something that I really, that I thought was really powerful at cfe was that they implemented a program, they, they called it their sponsorship program. And without being too long-winded about mentorship versus sponsorship, right? The idea is that your sponsor is gonna be the person who's bringing you up in a room that you are not in to maybe get you an opportunity that you otherwise would not have gotten. And Kafi started a pro, a sponsorship program there where they paired their minority associates, their younger minority associates with those in on management committee at the firm, the rainmakers, if you will. And I thought that this was such a specific intentional and powerful tool.
Brandon Brown (42:57):
I was selected as part of the pilot of the program, and I was able to build a relationship with someone at the firm who I know was important to the political structure of that firm, right? Something that we a lot of times don't get talked about when it comes to the corporate world or the firm world. Is that like anything? There's politics, there's structure there. I mean, frankly, there are some people who are gonna have more political capital and social capital in that firm than others. And the problem is that a lot of times in these spaces as black attorneys, there aren't many people who are in those places who have the ability to kind of pull you up and help you out, right? And we don't get the benefit of nepotism. And a lot of times it's not necessarily that somebody's pushing you down, it's that nobody's really helping you up either.
Brandon Brown (43:50):
And so what I really appreciated at Cal was this sponsorship program where I built this connection, and it still ended up being an organic connection, but sometimes you have to decide to plant the seed somewhere and decide to water it and decide to cultivate it, and then it'll grow, right? And I was able to build this relationship with someone, and it led to me getting an opportunity to work on a case and intellectual property, which I never would've gotten that experience, right? And so I was able to increase my political and social capital at the firm at the time because of this connection. And so I put that out there to any companies or, or firms or just any offices that are looking for specific ways to help increase diversity. You know, a lot of times we talk about these concepts, but I try to ground it as much as possible.
Brandon Brown (44:38):
And that sponsorship program was something that I thought was a really intentional and grounded way of really pairing you with someone who will then fight for you in those rooms that you are not in and tell you things like, the reality is maybe you should do more work for this partner instead of that partner, right? Things that a lot of times people don't wanna talk about, but it's necessary if you want to advance in certain areas, right? So I just wanted to bring that up, that, you know, leveraging your capital to improve the lives of the diverse attorneys around you is important.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (45:08):
Absolutely. so it's about those intentional connections the ones that are meaningful with people who do have that capital to be able to bring you along. Making sure that we're unified so that when we have opportunities that we can be of assistance to one another and make a commitment to not put one another down, right? It serves me no purpose to put someone down, especially someone who looks like me, but I should not do that for anyone. To be able to use our positions of authority whether it's how long we've practiced or if we are the jurist. So the one who is in control of the room to say, I will use my power and my authority to be able to assist you in those rooms as well as go giving back, right? So making it our business to show up in those schools so that the younger students and the next generation of lawyers can be more diverse because they saw us.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (46:07):
I will never forget, I remember being in high school like I, that was the first time I saw an African American attorney when she came and spoke, and she was a judge in the court that I'm in right now. So it was like, okay, I really can do this. And not only can I be a lawyer, but maybe one day I can be a judge. And I went on to clerk for her once I was in law school, and then she went on to the Ohio Supreme Court is now in private practice, and after I was elected, she went back to the Ohio Supreme Court and got special privileges so that she could swear me in. And you just never know the impact that you can have on someone's life. Now, she doesn't want me to share when I go out and speak that she spoke at my high school.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (46:47):
'Cause She's like, that's a little bit too much information. We can start a little further down the line. They don't have to know all of that. But at the same time, making sure that we are all visible so people know that it really can be a reality, and that I will put myself out there to be a safe space for you. Whether it's a conversation we can go behind closed doors, but then I will do what I can publicly to promote you and to make sure that whatever I can do, you can use at your disposal so that we can all come up together. What can we do as a community, as black attorneys? What can we do to elevate the community overall in addition to the things that we've shared? Ron, what do you think?
Ron Johnson (47:33):
One of the things that my early mentor told me, and this was before I was a lawyer, before I became a lawyer, he said, you absolutely have to be involved in the community in some way, shape, or form. So he encouraged me to, you know, volunteer for organizations, sit on boards, that kind of thing. I personally believe that as lawyers, that we have a duty, you know, it's, it's kind of baked into our, you know, rules of professional responsibility, you know, to encourage lawyers to participate in community activities, to lend our problem solving skills. The, the work that we do doesn't have to be legal related. We don't always have to be the, you know, you know, reading contracts and stuff like that. It's about problem solving and it's about putting things in the, in the context. That's what we learn in law school. That's what law school does for us. And so it's my belief that that's, those are special skills that we are duty bound to provide to the community.
Judge Lasheyl N. Stroud (48:29):
So thank you to Ron, to Leslie, and to Brandon for sharing your stories. It is not always easy for us to be transparent because this, these are our lives that we're sharing in our actual lived experiences of what we have been through. So thank you all for your transparency here this evening for your words of wisdom so that we can all move forward in a more equitable and just legal system altogether. Thank you to the audience for you all listening to us, for allowing us to share and creating this safe, intimate space for us on this evening. We look forward to moving forward all together with all of us together as we move to create this more equitable system.
Ron Johnson (49:13):
Thank you Judge for, for recognizing us.
Becky Ruppert McMahon (49:16):
Thank you for joining us for another My Bar story. You can still sign up to record your own bar story@cclemetrobar.org slash podcast. Watch your podcast feed for a new episode coming soon. Have a great week.